The slow, whiny death of British Christianity

[hiyymer]

Evangelical sects are on the increase here though.

I've read the theory that the reason Europe is so secular is because it's emasculated state religions have survived as state bureaucracies. People see themselves as culturally of that religion, but they really don't want to go to church and hear some boring bureaucrat. And besides organized religion has a bad name because of all the political violence that was committed in its name. Gradually competition has been allowed in and evangelism is growing rapidly. The idea is that Europe is really not as secular as it seems, and that religion is on a permanent comeback, because of the trend to an open market. What do you think?

[Rum]

Evangelical sects are on the increase here though.

I've read the theory that the reason Europe is so secular is because it's emasculated state religions have survived as state bureaucracies. People see themselves as culturally of that religion, but they really don't want to go to church and hear some boring bureaucrat. And besides organized religion has a bad name because of all the political violence that was committed in its name. Gradually competition has been allowed in and evangelism is growing rapidly. The idea is that Europe is really not as secular as it seems, and that religion is on a permanent comeback, because of the trend to an open market. What do you think?

I think it is one of the few 'active' religious paths available now. Certainly the Church of England its totally lacking in either inspiration or authority and often seems downright agnostic in its dogma. Similarly the Catholic church , besides the erosion of belief through 'rationalisation' has also lost a huge amount of authority through recent scandals.

I suspect though the numbers of people who are now agnostic, fence sitting or downright atheist far outnumber those who participate in evangelical activity or alternative religions. Then of course there is the move to 'dabble', generally by younger people who experiment with anything from Buddhism to pantheism, but never really 'settle'. Hard to know though.

[hiyymer]

I think it is one of the few 'active' religious paths available now. Certainly the Church of England its totally lacking in either inspiration or authority and often seems downright agnostic in its dogma. Similarly the Catholic church , besides the erosion of belief through 'rationalisation' has also lost a huge amount of authority through recent scandals.

I suspect though the numbers of people who are now agnostic, fence sitting or downright atheist far outnumber those who participate in evangelical activity or alternative religions. Then of course there is the move to 'dabble', generally by younger people who experiment with anything from Buddhism to pantheism, but never really 'settle'. Hard to know though.

Well if the "states" is any kind of indicator, where we have a very open market and a lot of really good preachers because of it....

When you say 'rationalization', what does that mean to you?

[JimC]

Similar pattern in Oz to the OP...

Current female Prime Minister (until the forthcoming election, at least) is an atheist who said that publically...

Would be a political death knell in the States, I'm sure...

[Rum]

I think it is one of the few 'active' religious paths available now. Certainly the Church of England its totally lacking in either inspiration or authority and often seems downright agnostic in its dogma. Similarly the Catholic church , besides the erosion of belief through 'rationalisation' has also lost a huge amount of authority through recent scandals.

I suspect though the numbers of people who are now agnostic, fence sitting or downright atheist far outnumber those who participate in evangelical activity or alternative religions. Then of course there is the move to 'dabble', generally by younger people who experiment with anything from Buddhism to pantheism, but never really 'settle'. Hard to know though.

Well if the "states" is any kind of indicator, where we have a very open market and a lot of really good preachers because of it....

When you say 'rationalization', what does that mean to you?

Bad choice of word. I suppose I mean the ascendency of rationality over blind faith.

[hiyymer]

I think it is one of the few 'active' religious paths available now. Certainly the Church of England its totally lacking in either inspiration or authority and often seems downright agnostic in its dogma. Similarly the Catholic church , besides the erosion of belief through 'rationalisation' has also lost a huge amount of authority through recent scandals.

I suspect though the numbers of people who are now agnostic, fence sitting or downright atheist far outnumber those who participate in evangelical activity or alternative religions. Then of course there is the move to 'dabble', generally by younger people who experiment with anything from Buddhism to pantheism, but never really 'settle'. Hard to know though.

Well if the "states" is any kind of indicator, where we have a very open market and a lot of really good preachers because of it....

When you say 'rationalization', what does that mean to you?

Bad choice of word. I suppose I mean the ascendency of rationality over blind faith.

Perhaps I'm older than you. Even though I am a science junky, I would say you are living in an illusion. All any of us have is blind faith. Life is not rational.

[Rum]

I think it is one of the few 'active' religious paths available now. Certainly the Church of England its totally lacking in either inspiration or authority and often seems downright agnostic in its dogma. Similarly the Catholic church , besides the erosion of belief through 'rationalisation' has also lost a huge amount of authority through recent scandals.

I suspect though the numbers of people who are now agnostic, fence sitting or downright atheist far outnumber those who participate in evangelical activity or alternative religions. Then of course there is the move to 'dabble', generally by younger people who experiment with anything from Buddhism to pantheism, but never really 'settle'. Hard to know though.

Well if the "states" is any kind of indicator, where we have a very open market and a lot of really good preachers because of it....

When you say 'rationalization', what does that mean to you?

Bad choice of word. I suppose I mean the ascendency of rationality over blind faith.

Perhaps I'm older than you. Even though I am a science junky, I would say you are living in an illusion. All any of us have is blind faith. Life is not rational.

I am living an illusion? Sorry, but how do you make that leap?

Atheism is arrived at as a rational view of the nature of the universe and how/what/ is comes to be. Religion is irrational.

I don't have blind faith about anything. I have belief based on experience and I have mystery based on lack of knowledge.

I am 59 by the way.

[Pappa]

I think it is one of the few 'active' religious paths available now. Certainly the Church of England its totally lacking in either inspiration or authority and often seems downright agnostic in its dogma. Similarly the Catholic church , besides the erosion of belief through 'rationalisation' has also lost a huge amount of authority through recent scandals.

I suspect though the numbers of people who are now agnostic, fence sitting or downright atheist far outnumber those who participate in evangelical activity or alternative religions. Then of course there is the move to 'dabble', generally by younger people who experiment with anything from Buddhism to pantheism, but never really 'settle'. Hard to know though.

Well if the "states" is any kind of indicator, where we have a very open market and a lot of really good preachers because of it....

When you say 'rationalization', what does that mean to you?

Bad choice of word. I suppose I mean the ascendency of rationality over blind faith.

Perhaps I'm older than you. Even though I am a science junky, I would say you are living in an illusion. All any of us have is blind faith. Life is not rational.

I am living an illusion? Sorry, but how do you make that leap?

Atheism is arrived at as a rational view of the nature of the universe and how/what/ is comes to be. Religion is irrational.

I don't have blind faith about anything. I have belief based on experience and I have mystery based on lack of knowledge.

I am 59 by the way.

I think he means that simply believing that trees and bricks are real requires some blind faith.

[Rum]

I think he means that simply believing that trees and bricks are real requires some blind faith.

I do think we 'invent' the world - each of us, in something akin to the way graphics cards render images. What I see exists in my mind primarily. And a further step of course takes one to so called 'solipsism? Well there is no real counter argument to that position. Perhaps I do take it on blind faith that the universe does not simply exist as a projection of my mind.

Incidentally I got trapped into some pretty weird mental places with LSD thinking about this stuff. Scared the hell out of me!

[leo-rcc]

There is going to be an Intelligence Squared debate:



http://www.intelligencesquared.com/even ... christians

Apparently you Brits have become so irreligious that Christians feel even more prosecuted than usual.

[RuleBritannia]

Wow, that's a nice neutral title for a debate.

[hiyymer]

I am living an illusion? Sorry, but how do you make that leap?

Atheism is arrived at as a rational view of the nature of the universe and how/what/ is comes to be. Religion is irrational.

I don't have blind faith about anything. I have belief based on experience and I have mystery based on lack of knowledge.

I am 59 by the way.

If your an atheist it's blind faith in the representation in your experience of a moral agent self.

What reason tells us is that we are part of a deterministic biological process that has been going on for eons and has no purpose or intention. It's only meaning is that life has a propensity to replicate. Our limbic system with it's ancient evolutionary agenda is running the show. Your body is a deterministic biological process. You have no reasons for your choices. You do what you want to do and you can't decide what you want. That's what reason tells us.

[Rum]

There is going to be an Intelligence Squared debate:



http://www.intelligencesquared.com/even ... christians

Apparently you Brits have become so irreligious that Christians feel even more prosecuted than usual.

Yay!!!!!!!!

[JimC]

There is going to be an Intelligence Squared debate:



http://www.intelligencesquared.com/even ... christians

Apparently you Brits have become so irreligious that Christians feel even more prosecuted than usual.

Yay!!!!!!!!

I wonder who or what they think are the groups or movements that are doing the bashing...

3 main choices:

* overt strident atheism as in Dawkins et al
* the rise of islam in Britain/political correctness/cultural relativity ("all religions are equally valid")
* indifference in the general population

[Rum]

I wonder who or what they think are the groups or movements that are doing the bashing...

3 main choices:

* overt strident atheism as in Dawkins et al
* the rise of islam in Britain/political correctness/cultural relativity ("all religions are equally valid")
* indifference in the general population

Desperation Jim. Desperation.