What would a true communist society/country look like?

[sandinista]

sandinista, Yes, how dare we bring up human nature. After all, what could human nature possibly have to do with the way the human beings behave? Nobody has said that humans are not capable of evolution. If fact, most of us would probably agree that human beings are most definitely capable of evolution.

However, even if we accept human evolution as a fact (or even a probability), just what reasons could you possibly have for thinking that humans are going to evolve in such a way that it will result in the creation of your little, communist conception of utopia? Can you give any reasons that any of the rest of us might assume, hope, believe, whatever, that the great masses of mankind are going to move in that direction?

first human nature and now Utopia eh? Broken records around here, come up with something new. Not even sure why I am responding to this. No one has ever claimed communism to be a utopia.

[LaMont Cranston]

sandinista, I'm not sure why you're responding either. I challenged you to come up with reasons why you think human beings are going to evolve in a specific way, and you came up with a pissy, evasive response. What should be obvious, even to you, is that most of those countries that tried communism have moved away from it, and they are glad they did.

[sandinista]

sandinista, I'm not sure why you're responding either. I challenged you to come up with reasons why you think human beings are going to evolve in a specific way, and you came up with a pissy, evasive response. What should be obvious, even to you, is that most of those countries that tried communism have moved away from it, and they are glad they did.

yah..."moved away". try again. hint..bombings, coups, assassinations, sanctions...etc etc

[LaMont Cranston]

Eriku, Nobody has said anything close to even implying that capitalism doesn't have many flaws. In practice, there are many people who find ways to corrupt any system of government, there are people who find ways to exert special influences on elected officials, there are people who find ways to exploit others, there are people who find ways to lie, cheat and steal, etc. If you are looking for a perfect system of government and economics, you're only going to find that in your philosophy or political science classes. In the real world, a system is only as good or fucked-up as the people who control it.

What I have said, and I continue to stand by it, is that what appears to work best in the world is a government based on democratic principles with an economic system that is a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Since July 4, 1776, one of the major historical trends on the planet is that countries have increasingly gone in the direction of at least giving lip service to democratic principles, no matter how corrupt their governments might turn out to be. Another trend is that things have gone in the direction of putting more power into the hands of more people, particularly women and minorities. By me, these are positive trends, and they are works in progress. In you're looking for some kind of sweeping, wholesale changes in the way that human beings behave and govern themselves, please tell us...and please don't be evasive like sandinista...just how you expect that to happen.

[Eriku]

Eriku, Nobody has said anything close to even implying that capitalism doesn't have many flaws. In practice, there are many people who find ways to corrupt any system of government, there are people who find ways to exert special influences on elected officials, there are people who find ways to exploit others, there are people who find ways to lie, cheat and steal, etc. If you are looking for a perfect system of government and economics, you're only going to find that in your philosophy or political science classes. In the real world, a system is only as good or fucked-up as the people who control it.

What I have said, and I continue to stand by it, is that what appears to work best in the world is a government based on democratic principles with an economic system that is a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Since July 4, 1776, one of the major historical trends on the planet is that countries have increasingly gone in the direction of at least giving lip service to democratic principles, no matter how corrupt their governments might turn out to be. Another trend is that things have gone in the direction of putting more power into the hands of more people, particularly women and minorities. By me, these are positive trends, and they are works in progress. In you're looking for some kind of sweeping, wholesale changes in the way that human beings behave and govern themselves, please tell us...and please don't be evasive like sandinista...just how you expect that to happen.

I'm a realist, actually, so I'm not looking to hold democratic capitalism up to lofty standards... nor do I have any incredible answers to what would be a better system and how it should be implemented... but certain horrendous facts just have to be pointed out... the hostility towards unions, the disregard for the quality of life in the third world, the funding of climate skeptics (and not in the good way), skeptics of whether second-hand smoke is harmful, wherever there's a buck to be made... Going to war in order to enrich a minor per centage of a country, and simultanously spewing propaganda all over the place... To many people, a SHITLOAD of people, this system is no better than the Communist system.

Somehow I just can't claim to be content with it... or even close to it... It's even harder if you've been to a place like Cambodia, which has had the best of both worlds forced on it... Decrying one and lauding the other seems wrong to me.

It even makes villains of the supposedly cuddly nation of Norway, which before anybody mentions the vikings, has been tempered by having been kicked around by Denmark and Sweden for a fair few hundred years... our hands are bloody too, with Norwegian oil money being invested into weapons companies and whatnot.

[Toontown]

The fact that communism was rubbish shouldn't disguise the fact that capitalism smells of piss.

The fact that the world population has far outstripped any system's ability to cope with their bloated numbers probably accounts for the smell of piss.

Why do the most unpleasant, impoverished places on earth always have the greatest population densities?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

The fact that communism was rubbish shouldn't disguise the fact that capitalism smells of piss.

The fact that the world population has far outstripped any system's ability to cope with their bloated numbers probably accounts for the smell of piss.

Why do the most unpleasant, impoverished places on earth always have the biggest populations?

Its a plot by islamofascistneoprogkryptostalinists!

[Eriku]

The fact that communism was rubbish shouldn't disguise the fact that capitalism smells of piss.

The fact that the world population has far outstripped any system's ability to cope with their bloated numbers probably accounts for the smell of piss.

Why do the most unpleasant, impoverished places on earth always have the biggest populations?

Educate women more and you'll find population growth declines... there's plenty of research on this.

And the capitalist system has hardly been trying its best to spread the riches, has it now? The US, being the model capitalist society, has the largest concentration of wealth in the western world, and has systematically been marginalising workers ever since its rise to prominence.

People generally don't even question why they're only given two alternatives in an election (unless they want to throw away their vote on a renegade), and why they seem so similar. They differ on certain contentious issues, played up by the media, so you'll have the population worried about their stances on gay rights, abortion, guns, etc. rather than how they systematically are aiding the priveleged classes. Home of the free, indeed.

[Ian]

Human society just isn't ready for "true" communism. Not for a while, if ever. Every communist government in history has had to force their policies down most of their citizens' throats.

It kinda makes me think of a parent giving their kids nothing but vegetables, saying "You'll get used to it! It's good for you! Sooner or later, I'm sure you'll learn to love it!" Maybe it is healthy, but is that the right thing to do?

Human society is ready for anything IMO. Sooner or later the kids usually do love it. Feeding you're kids whatever they want (mcshit every day) is a worse idea.

Which is why your opinion is unbalanced. You can eat a diet of nothing but veggies if you like. I like variety. And I don't like the idea of you being in charge and saying I can have absolutely nothing but what you tell me 'cause you know what's best.

Human society isn't "ready for anything". It's capable of anything - but "anything" often takes time. And in the meantime, I'm part of human society as much as you are, and I'd happily drop napalm on your kind for trying to force feed me your mushy vegetables. :twisted:

[LaMont Cranston]

sandinista, Neither capitalism nor communist systems have a monopoly on such things as bombings, assassinations, sanctions, etc. Those things happen on American soil. JFK was assassinated, and LBJ became President. The Fed Building in Oklahoma City was bombed, and it didn't change the entire economy. The Twin Towers in NYC were destroyed, and capitalism didn't come crashing down around us.

The point is, a workable government, no matter how flawed, is able to adapt to changes, crises, disasters, etc. Can those situations be handled oh-so-much better? Fuckin' A YES! I can't say I feel good about the way that Bush and all the others handled Hurricane Katrina when it hit New Orleans, and the problems still haven't been handled. What I have not seen is any evidence or any other reason to believe that a communist system would handle those situations better. If you have anything to offer other than evasion, let's see what you've got...

[Toontown]

The fact that communism was rubbish shouldn't disguise the fact that capitalism smells of piss.

The fact that the world population has far outstripped any system's ability to cope with their bloated numbers probably accounts for the smell of piss.

Why do the most unpleasant, impoverished places on earth always have the biggest populations?

Its a plot by islamofascistneoprogkryptostalinists!

That's right. Make light of the only post in the whole thread that even vaguely alludes to the real nitty-gritty.

[LaMont Cranston]

Ian, I can come up with at least one other great reason why our version of democratic capitalist/socialism (or whatever we want to call it) works better than all the rest of that shit. Where would The Ohio State Buckeyes be under communism? They'd be playing soccer, that's what they'd be doing...if they were allowed to field any teams at all. Most likely, all of those big O-linemen would be out working in fields somewhere lifting bales of hay.

I mean, let's keep our priorities straight here!

[Eriku]

The fact that communism was rubbish shouldn't disguise the fact that capitalism smells of piss.

The fact that the world population has far outstripped any system's ability to cope with their bloated numbers probably accounts for the smell of piss.

Why do the most unpleasant, impoverished places on earth always have the biggest populations?

Its a plot by islamofascistneoprogkryptostalinists!

That's right. Make light of the only post in the whole thread that even vaguely alludes to the real nitty-gritty.

I've not seen you reply to the point I made about education of women being integral in the decline of population growth, and the concentration of capital pointing to your claim about poor old capitalism being financially stretched too far.

[Ian]

Ian, I can come up with at least one other great reason why our version of democratic capitalist/socialism (or whatever we want to call it) works better than all the rest of that shit. Where would The Ohio State Buckeyes be under communism? They'd be playing soccer, that's what they'd be doing...if they were allowed to field any teams at all. Most likely, all of those big O-linemen would be out working in fields somewhere lifting bales of hay.

I mean, let's keep our priorities straight here!

Jeez, I didn't even think about that!
That's not only an argument against communism, that's a good reason for a pre-emptive nuclear strike. Nobody can take Buckeye football away from me. Nobody.

[Eriku]

That's right, yanks... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLL the rest of the world has it wrong and football (association football) is more boring than your "foot"ball ;P

Our brand of footy has facilitated ceasefires... yours hasn't I rest my case.