Religions final straw

[Meshd]

Hi folks, I have been lurking this forum for about a week or two now and have decided to take part and start my first thread. I have not yet had chance to look through all the old posts so apologies if this question has already been asked. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on whether there could be a scientific discovery so profound that it would once and for all make it impossible for all those who believe in God and the supernatural to keep on believing. I know that there is already enough evidence out there to make it very unlikely but an argument can still be made to "God designed it that way" in terms of the evolution of life and the Universe. Do you think for instance, if it was discovered that we were all simulations in a computer game designed by intelligent dinosaurs millions of years ago or the universe was full of life far more intelligent than us that this would do the trick or are their arguments just too slippery to completely put down. Would be interested to hear your thoughts..

[Animavore]

I'm afraid the short answer is 'No' and you already hinted as to why that might be in your post. The answer "God could've made it that way" is an argument ender. In fact it's one I find using to reach resolution with my friends and other believers. If they accept that science is correct but they still believe there is something more then it's probably the best we can hope for. In fact, if all theists were of this type I wouldn't have a problem with any of them.
Unfortunately, they're not.
The more die-hard followers, the True Believers TM will just wave any evidence off as being the work of the devil like they already do.

Welcome to the forum by the way

[Rum]

First of all - welcome! Nice to see you posting!

Secondly, I don't think so. Magical thinking allows for belief and faith and lack of evidence to contribute to one's world view. Even if science explains clearly what went on 'before' the big bang and the nature of what we are, there will still be those who prefer to think in terms of a personal god.

What is clearer to me as my own thinking develops is actually that what we see is greater and greater mystery and that the nature of the universe is far more mysterious than the run of the mill religious view would have it.

I also think that more and more people are less and less sure that there is a god around the place.

[mistermack]

I don't think it's down to the nature of the discovery. It's the nature of the belief.
If allah turned up with Mohammed by his side, and started doing god-magic, would it convert all the christians to islam? I doubt it. Loads of them would say, thanks very much, but I'll hang on for jehoover. I'm sure he'll be along soon.

Every person is different. Some would change, many would not. It would be the same with any scientific discovery.

And anyway, we went through that experience with Charles Darwin. He disposed of the logic for religion, but they just bent it and carried on as before.
.

[Deep Sea Isopod]

Hello newbie!


Science has been closing the gap on god for a long time, now. But lo it was told "science will never know everything" so with the tiniest of gaps being left open, god whom is so big and powerfull, will still be able to fit into it.

[FBM]

Unfortunately, no one has yet found a rational response to woo that is sufficiently convincing to those who want to believe in the impossible. They just keep shifting the goal posts as to what constitutes 'evidence'.


Oh, and welcome!


Sorry if the paco-hug is too soon.


Do you love me?

Sorry. Ref= Old Greg. Youtube it.

[Jay G]

The only possibility would be if God showed up and told all those who believe in him that he doesn't exist. Then they would have be atheists because it was the word of God.

[hiyymer]

Hi folks, I have been lurking this forum for about a week or two now and have decided to take part and start my first thread. I have not yet had chance to look through all the old posts so apologies if this question has already been asked. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on whether there could be a scientific discovery so profound that it would once and for all make it impossible for all those who believe in God and the supernatural to keep on believing. I know that there is already enough evidence out there to make it very unlikely but an argument can still be made to "God designed it that way" in terms of the evolution of life and the Universe. Do you think for instance, if it was discovered that we were all simulations in a computer game designed by intelligent dinosaurs millions of years ago or the universe was full of life far more intelligent than us that this would do the trick or are their arguments just too slippery to completely put down. Would be interested to hear your thoughts..

It seems to me that there is a more fundamental question. Has science precluded the possibility of agency in the way we experience it? It's the old issue of free will. The agent that our brain creates in our experience is the carrier of what we call free will. There is no free will without the free will-er, the agent. If reality is "caused" then we start with the fact that there can be no free will. Then what is the agent? The brain creates our experience, and how it does it is the result of eons of trial and error called natural selection. It needs to represent in consciousness the things that it needs to respond to in what's really out there. Consciousness is a mystery, but it's function doesn't seem to be. How can the brain represent a physical biological process where the causal complexity is mind numbing? What it needs to do is model how that process will respond in the future. It does so my turning what the process has always tended to produce in the past given certain stimuli, into a model of what it will produce in the future, and characterizes that prediction as the self-caused intention of the agent. There is no intention or free will out there. It is all a creation of the brain to be able to deal with the natural biological processes out there. The agent takes on all the intentional characteristics of what it has produced in the past in any given situation. "Getting to know someone" is just the process of the brain filling out the agent model of that natural biological process called Aunt Jane.

The self is just another agent. Agents are representations created by the brain. They are created by the brain because they represent some process in physical reality. They represent something that exists. But the characteristics of the agent as a free-willed intentional center of control does not exist in natural reality. It is "supernatural".

God is an agent, and at least at a minimum it represents some things which really exist out there; our shared social drives. The representation "God wants us to love each other" obviously represents something that is really out there. The representation "God literally, scientifically, and actually created everything in 6 days a few thousand years ago" does not represent something that is really out there. But that does not change the fact that God is just as supernaturally legitimate as your supernatural free willed intentional self. The problem is not whether God exists, but whether moral agency exists in any sense; whether life is entirely meaningless without the supernatural agent representations that our brain creates. The atheists is in the same boat as the theist.

I think it is possible that there may be some major breakthroughs in science that change our understanding of the fundamental nature of reality. Time is still a mystery. Time has been demonstrated to be relative, but it may not exist at all except as an "emergent" property of the relationships of the discreet clumps of matter in the universe and how information propagates. The concept of causation depends of time. It is in all the formulas. If time is something radically different, then all bets may be off.

[amused]

Do you think for instance, if it was discovered that we were all simulations in a computer game designed by intelligent dinosaurs millions of years ago...

Wow. I never would have come up with that on my own. On another board someone proposed a story about werepandas. These forums are an endless source of story ideas!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Apostrophe horror!

[amused]

I just had to combine these two subjects in a comic.

werepanda

[Meshd]

thanks for all the responses and sorry I couldn't respond sooner but I have a dodgy router atm so this is being typed at my friends as he has a smoke outside. I guess it is a sad truth that there will always be certain people who hold on to their beliefs despite how contradictory they are to the known evidence but I still remain optimistic that at some point in the future a discovery will be made that will at least turn the vast majority of those who call themselves moderates into non believers, leaving only a small group of fundamentals. I realize there are already many ideas out there today that should fit this role so maybe it is just a case of more education although after arguing with Christians in the past I find it hard to believe that evolution and chaos are enough to be fully persuading. I have to be quick so I'll ask another question. Would you be willing to throw away all your assumptions that the universe is a logical and and ultimately understandable place if tomorrow something happened that completely went against everything that science has taught you about it. for example,. the earth suddenly losing its gravity whilst simultaneously speeding off towards the sun at twice the speed of light. What would it take for you to lose faith in science and logic. nice to meet you all btwz