Suicide intervention discussion

[Cunt]

I don't get how you think I'm the illogical or uncaring one here.

I don't. I just think you are misguided by the majority, christian viewpoint.

The vast majority of the world's population thinks like I do. Most have specially trained officers who try to reason with suicidal people.

The vast majority gets shit dead wrong often.
That is why this fallacy 'argument ad populum' is worthless as argument.

I think I would have a lot to say to a policeman who counselled my kid with stuff like you recommend. "You jump mate, I respect your decision. If you can't stand the pain, get it over with now. Do it now while you're sloshed, you might not have the nerve when you're sober."

I don't remember recommending any counseling. If I had, I would have suggested using any appropriate verbal intervention (tough to say without specific examples to answer) and stopping short of psysical intervention.

You may think that the rest of the world is stupid, and you are right, but they pass laws and get to where they are by hundreds of years of experience, not theorising on forums. By the experience of people going and thanking police negotiators for talking them out of it. etc etc.

That would be a selection bias. Only those who are happy to be stopped would say so. The ones who are not happy to have been stopped will likely not say anything.
They will simply find another way.

You keep on about respect, as if it matters.

You are fucking right it matters. If you are to have any hope of changing someones mind about killing themselves, you would HAVE to show some respect (unless you simply resort to brute force).

If you are stone cold in a drawer, in a morgue, it doesn't matter if people respect you or not.

I disagree. I think the fact that so many suicides are 'trash-talked' after they die (i.e.-people saying they were drunk and stupid, when it may not be true) is quite harmful.
I don't know how things are where you live, but here in my region, there are many more suicides than elsewhere. I think many of them could be avoided if the people who are at the end of their ropes felt respected and heard.

They could plaster your remains in silly makeup, and write the word idiot on your belly, it wouldn't affect you in the slightest, because you no longer exist. As far as I'm concerned, suicide is the dumbest, most selfish decision anybody can make, except for a tiny tiny few. So I'm never going to respect that decision. But SO WHAT? The people I belittle, ( as you put it ) or disrespect, do not exist. So who cares what I think?
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I think the people who are living, but respect the choices of the successful suicides before them are going to care what you think.

Those considering suicides are going to realize that you wont respect their decision no matter what, so why try to talk with you about their suicide ideation?

I think respect for people has a better chance of opening communication than your arbitrary decision that it is almost always selfish.

By the way, why would you say it is selfish? The 'self' you are suggesting the 'ish' for is fucking dead. I think calling it selfish is ludicrous.
Isn't it more selfish that people insist that their suffering family members go on suffering because it would make it tough to get through this Christmas with a suicide joining them for dinner?

And another thing - this has wandered far afield from the original topic. Should we not ask for a schism? I am going to, because while I think this subject deserves much more discussion, it has little to do with the original post. (or I may be wrong and this derail belongs right where it is...)

[Cunt]

That makes sense to me, but I wouldn't force it on someone else.
Would you?

I certainly would, if I had the chance. They don't write "suicide while the balance of the mind was disturbed" on death certificates for no good reason. And there's one thing you've ignored. It's never too late for suicide. You always get another go. It's only too late if you're dead. So yes, I would certainly stop someone by force.
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So lets try a few specifics...
Would you physically stop someone if:
They told you the reason and you agreed (such as terminal cancer about to eat into quality of life and family savings)?
They refused to tell you the reason (such as someone trying to cheat the insurance company to benefit their family)?
They told you and you disagreed (such as someone who said they could not bear the pain of depression any longer)?

What about someone joining the military and taking dangerous missions? Does it matter what their reason is? Does it matter less?

Is it suicide to smoke for years? Eat high-fat foods? Have reckless sex with dirty young whores who don't insist on STI protection? Taking recreational drugs?

[mistermack]

It's perfectly clear that we have opposite views on this. I personally don't believe in right and wrong, it's down to the prevailing attitude at the time.
Jenner tested the first vaccine on a young boy, by deliberately infecting him. That would be wrong today, it wasn't then. The romans saw nothing wrong in making people fight to the death for their entertainment.

I'm happy with the current attitudes to suicide. As I said, there is no right or wrong, but it all seems to be a reasonable working compromise.

I don't think the things you listed are in the same league. People are often reckless, or willing to live a more dangerous lifestyle. They don't have the intention of ending it all.

As far as respect goes, if you crave respect from others, you have to earn it. You can't demand that people change their attitudes to suit you. If you want respect from others, it's you that has to match their standards as to what they will respect.

Impulse suicides don't match that for me, or for most people.
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[Cunt]

As far as respect goes, if you crave respect from others, you have to earn it. You can't demand that people change their attitudes to suit you. If you want respect from others, it's you that has to match their standards as to what they will respect.

Impulse suicides don't match that for me, or for most people.
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How could you (or anyone) know that a particular suicide was an 'impulse' suicide?

I think it is pretty nasty language to use to describe something which may have been agonized over for days, weeks or months.

The language itself around suicide screams disrespect...calling it 'selfish', for instance, when it is anything BUT in one's self-interest, is a particularly rotten bit of abusive language.

I prefer to allow that they may have had damned good reasons for what they decided to do. Not always the case, true, but I think it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to something so important.

Tell me, since you have used this language yourself, how the HELL can someone killing themselves be described as selfish, except by the selfish?

[Cunt]

Oh, and I would like to try to get your answer to these, once again...

Would you physically stop someone if:
1. They told you the reason and you agreed (such as terminal cancer about to eat into quality of life and family savings)?
2. They refused to tell you the reason (such as someone trying to cheat the insurance company to benefit their family)?
3. They told you and you disagreed (such as someone who said they could not bear the pain of depression any longer)?

[Cunt]

*split from People Who Hang Themselves

[Cunt]

Wrt splitting the topic: Yes, this derail has strayed quite far afield. Cunt, if you start a thread and give it a title that relects the main idea you see developing, I'll split the relevant posts to it.

Here you are, and thanks for your time.

[mistermack]

Selfish means putting your own wants first, a disregard for others.
So many suicides are due to someone not getting what they want, and are often done to hurt others. That's selfish.
I'm amazed at your reference to "dirty young whores".
Surely every single argument you've made about suicides applies equally to prostitutes?
They do something foreign to what most people would consider doing, usually out of the genuine pain of addiction. And often to keep a family together.
I would be far more prepared to respect a "dirty young whore" struggling with addiction, who had the courage to keep on fighting, than some drama-queen who petulantly stamps their foot when they don't get what they want, and swallows a load of pills.
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[Feck]

Some one I know died after drinking a vast quantity of vodka and jumping in the river at Inverness in December.

The excuses the family have used to convince themselves that it was an accident seem far more sad to me than the thought he had had enough and jumped.

There is still a social Taboo on suicide ,I'm not sure I agree with it .It's still one of ,if not the major cause of death for young males in NE Scotland .

I could take up base jumping or cave diving both of which are likely to kill you but actually saying Fuck this I'm off and killing myself in not acceptable ?

[mistermack]

I suppose the family would rather have him remembered as unlucky, than as a pathetic idiot. And there are many idiotic things you can do, but suicide sits right on top of the pile.
People tend to think families are embarassed because it's not socially acceptable. I don't think it's that. They just don't want the world to know they raised such an incredible self centered dummy.
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[Cunt]

Selfish means putting your own wants first, a disregard for others.

So killing others might be selfish (if done for gain), but giving up your own life...how exactly can that be 'self'ish? There is no self getting their 'wants'. The only selfish ones are those who would try to guilt people into living just so they wont have to feel bad.

So many suicides are due to someone not getting what they want, and are often done to hurt others. That's selfish.
I'm amazed at your reference to "dirty young whores".

Amazed? Really?
What is amazing about it? That I would have the will to refer to reckless sex as another route to self-destruction?

Surely every single argument you've made about suicides applies equally to prostitutes?
They do something foreign to what most people would consider doing, usually out of the genuine pain of addiction. And often to keep a family together.
I would be far more prepared to respect a "dirty young whore" struggling with addiction, who had the courage to keep on fighting, than some drama-queen who petulantly stamps their foot when they don't get what they want, and swallows a load of pills.
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I think you missed my point, but okay...perhaps you are seeing what you want to see rather than what I really wrote.

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Some one I know died after drinking a vast quantity of vodka and jumping in the river at Inverness in December.

The excuses the family have used to convince themselves that it was an accident seem far more sad to me than the thought he had had enough and jumped.

There is still a social Taboo on suicide ,I'm not sure I agree with it .It's still one of ,if not the major cause of death for young males in NE Scotland .

I could take up base jumping or cave diving both of which are likely to kill you but actually saying Fuck this I'm off and killing myself in not acceptable ?

This is what I was getting at. Someone with advanced social skills may elect to 'suicide' by dangerous sports, or dangerous military missions, or dangerous unprotected sex with dirty young whores. All these will be respected far more than someone who dispenses with that kind of pretense and simply ends their own life.

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I suppose the family would rather have him remembered as unlucky, than as a pathetic idiot. And there are many idiotic things you can do, but suicide sits right on top of the pile.
People tend to think families are embarassed because it's not socially acceptable. I don't think it's that. They just don't want the world to know they raised such an incredible self centered dummy.
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The idiocy in this post, coupled with the shameful lack of respect you are showing for a complete stranger is breathtaking.

How the fuck could you know he was an idiot? Have no geniuses killed themselves? Calling a complete stranger a self-centered dummy shows much about what your judgement is worth. Thanks for sharing your opinion, and showing everyone how valuable it is. (or isn't)

Oh, and I see you dodged the direct questions I asked you again...I won't bother trying to ask since it is clear you would rather just tar all suicide deaths with the same (WAY fucking wrong) brush.

[mistermack]

I've made it clear time and time again that, in my opinion, there ARE a minority of suicides that are not impulse, that are not stupid, who's motives one could respect. I think that they are a tiny minority, and that the majority are more what I depicted.
Now let's see if YOU can face reality. What proportion ( if any ) do YOU think are impulse suicides, done while drunk, or coming down from drugs, or following a lover's tiff, or done to "teach" their parents, etc. etc. etc.
Let's just see if YOU are living in the real world.
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[Trolldor]

Fucking hell, an impulse suicide? Are you serious? You honestly think most suicides are because somebody has a bad day?

[mistermack]

Fucking hell, an impulse suicide? Are you serious? You honestly think most suicides are because somebody has a bad day?

Who said anything about a day? You're talking about SUICIDE!! It's an impulse decision if you do it after a bad MONTH!! I would say it's too hasty, if you do it after a bad YEAR!!
But it's definitely an impulse decision if you do it while drunk, or coming down off drugs, or after being dumped, or being told you can't have the money to buy a car, etc etc etc.
Impulse suicide isn't like an impulse buy of a T shirt. It's the biggest decision of your life, so a different definition of impulse applies. Why is that so hard to work out for yourself?
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[mistermack]

How the fuck could you know he was an idiot?

Because he had drunk a vast quantity of Vodka. I know that I and most people would be an idiot after that much vodka, and his jumping just confirms it.
You seem to be having trouble with the bleeding obvious on this thread.

And trying to somehow equate suicide with risky sport is ludicrous.
Climb a mountain, and you spend all you time trying NOT to fall. If that's the best you can offer, you've got nothing.
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