What would a true communist society/country look like?

[Coito ergo sum]

Personally, I think that, in an effort to allow all people to have food, clothes, and shelter, I would be willing to use a red toothbrush for a month.

There is a foundational issue here.

You have not established that all it would take would be for people in the west to use a red toothbrush for month and then the rest of the world would have food, clothes and shelter. And, intuitively, it is easy to see that making such minor changes to western life as requiring one toothbrush of a certain color per month would do absolutely nothing to allow all people to have food, clothes and shelter.

Your statement is a:

[sandinista]

it's an example...based on an example I was given.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

haha OK. fucking hell man, you think under a communist system people will be sharing toothbrushes and underwear don't you.

Would we be able to decide how many we go through in any given time? Will there be some toothbrush regulatory agency doling them out? Will I have to fill out forms if I prefer a green toothbrush? Will I have to fill out a form explaining my needs if I want to wear pink boxers on Fridays?

No there's no choice at all. But it's OK because we'll all be wearing really cool robes.

They'd better be comfortable. Can I get different percentages of cotton and can I put them through a cold wash.

Do we even have washing machines and shit?

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

haha OK. fucking hell man, you think under a communist system people will be sharing toothbrushes and underwear don't you.

Would we be able to decide how many we go through in any given time? Will there be some toothbrush regulatory agency doling them out? Will I have to fill out forms if I prefer a green toothbrush? Will I have to fill out a form explaining my needs if I want to wear pink boxers on Fridays?

No there's no choice at all. But it's OK because we'll all be wearing really cool robes.

They'd better be comfortable. Can I get different percentages of cotton and can I put them through a cold wash?

Do we even have washing machines and shit?

[Don't Panic]

Even with your best description of it, what you consider "utopian," I see a prison.

I am using Utopian in a literal* meaning of the word, not the common usage.

*The word comes from the Greek: οὐ, "not", and τόπος, "place"

[sandinista]

haha OK. fucking hell man, you think under a communist system people will be sharing toothbrushes and underwear don't you.

Would we be able to decide how many we go through in any given time? Will there be some toothbrush regulatory agency doling them out? Will I have to fill out forms if I prefer a green toothbrush? Will I have to fill out a form explaining my needs if I want to wear pink boxers on Fridays?

No there's no choice at all. But it's OK because we'll all be wearing really cool robes.

They'd better be comfortable. Can I get different percentages of cotton and can I put them through a cold wash.

Do we even have washing machines and shit?

NO, NO WASHING MACHINES!!! MUST WASH BY HAND IN COLD WATER!!!

[Coito ergo sum]

NO, NO WASHING MACHINES!!! MUST WASH BY HAND IN COLD WATER!!!

No, there you might put a dent in western lifestyles. It's like some on the Left coming after our air conditioners these days. Oh, I see it coming. Folks in your camp looking to demonize people who use air conditioners.... that is right - we live too good in the west, and folks on your team aren't talking about raising the rest of the world up - they're talking about dragging us down.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

haha OK. fucking hell man, you think under a communist system people will be sharing toothbrushes and underwear don't you.

Would we be able to decide how many we go through in any given time? Will there be some toothbrush regulatory agency doling them out? Will I have to fill out forms if I prefer a green toothbrush? Will I have to fill out a form explaining my needs if I want to wear pink boxers on Fridays?

No there's no choice at all. But it's OK because we'll all be wearing really cool robes.

They'd better be comfortable. Can I get different percentages of cotton and can I put them through a cold wash.

Do we even have washing machines and shit?

NO, NO WASHING MACHINES!!! MUST WASH BY HAND IN COLD WATER!!!

Well if Soviet Russia didn't put me off Communism, this ban on washing machines sure has

Down with Obama!!! He'll take away your dishwasher!!!

[sandinista]

NO, NO WASHING MACHINES!!! MUST WASH BY HAND IN COLD WATER!!!

No, there you might put a dent in western lifestyles. It's like some on the Left coming after our air conditioners these days. Oh, I see it coming. Folks in your camp looking to demonize people who use air conditioners.... that is right - we live too good in the west, and folks on your team aren't talking about raising the rest of the world up - they're talking about dragging us down.

You think it is possible to raise the entire planet up to live like we do in North america? Good luck with that. Talk about a Utopia.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

It depends on who you're referring to as "we". If you mean the people who have a healthy, balanced diet, then yes we may well be able to. It's the Burger King regulars who would need to take a hit for it to work. Of course, that's only as far as food is concerned...

[Coito ergo sum]

NO, NO WASHING MACHINES!!! MUST WASH BY HAND IN COLD WATER!!!

No, there you might put a dent in western lifestyles. It's like some on the Left coming after our air conditioners these days. Oh, I see it coming. Folks in your camp looking to demonize people who use air conditioners.... that is right - we live too good in the west, and folks on your team aren't talking about raising the rest of the world up - they're talking about dragging us down.

You think it is possible to raise the entire planet up to live like we do in North america? Good luck with that.

It's possible for them to feed, clothe and shelter their populations.

Good luck with convincing the American or Canadian public that they will have to do without a/c and washing machines, and suffer shortages. That's not what people have in mind when they talk about equality. Most everyone assumes that they are "in the middle" and that what we're talking about is having everyone come up to the middle level, and the other "rich" folk coming down. Once you suggest, openly, that you're talking about impacting the daily lives of the average person, they won't want anything to do with the communist ideology. People like the sound of "everyone being equal" because it comes with the built in, unstated, assumption that everyone is equal "like me."

[sandinista]

It depends on who you're referring to as "we". If you mean the people who have a healthy, balanced diet, then yes we may well be able to. It's the Burger King regulars who would need to take a hit for it to work. Of course, that's only as far as food is concerned...

awwww but I WANT to drive my SUV to burger king 3 times a day and fill my fat face with shit. Freedom!

[Coito ergo sum]

It depends on who you're referring to as "we". If you mean the people who have a healthy, balanced diet, then yes we may well be able to. It's the Burger King regulars who would need to take a hit for it to work. Of course, that's only as far as food is concerned...

awwww but I WANT to drive my SUV to burger king 3 times a day and fill my fat face with shit. Freedom!

No, you want to live in a place where you're not allowed to go where you like, and eat what you like. Come on, man! Join adulthood! I'm sure you are perfectly capable of determining where you'd like to eat without being prohibited from going to a particular restaurant! I have more confidence in you than that....

You're right, though, the only freedom we should have is the freedom to do the "right" thing.

You want to smoke! Fuck that! It's bad for you! And, it drains the health care system! You want to drink alcohol? Get the fuck out of here you drunk! The way to live is a clean and sober life! And, don't even THINK about going out for Chinese food! That's not good enough for you! Here's your government approved food pyramid menu. Today is salisbury steak (made of tofu to look like steak), and salad and 6 ounces of soy milk. No no, Sandinista! Get out of the freezer! This is not ice cream day. Ice cream day is on Friday night, and only when the shortages are alleviated.

Now, it's time for your calesthenics because you don't exercise enough.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

It depends on who you're referring to as "we". If you mean the people who have a healthy, balanced diet, then yes we may well be able to. It's the Burger King regulars who would need to take a hit for it to work. Of course, that's only as far as food is concerned...

awwww but I WANT to drive my SUV to burger king 3 times a day and fill my fat face with shit. Freedom!

No, you want to live in a place where you're not allowed to go where you like, and eat what you like. Come on, man! Join adulthood! I'm sure you are perfectly capable of determining where you'd like to eat without being prohibited from going to a particular restaurant! I have more confidence in you than that....

You're right, though, the only freedom we should have is the freedom to do the "right" thing.

You want to smoke! Fuck that! It's bad for you! And, it drains the health care system! You want to drink alcohol? Get the fuck out of here you drunk! The way to live is a clean and sober life! And, don't even THINK about going out for Chinese food! That's not good enough for you! Here's your government approved food pyramid menu. Today is salisbury steak (made of tofu to look like steak), and salad and 6 ounces of soy milk. No no, Sandinista! Get out of the freezer! This is not ice cream day. Ice cream day is on Friday night, and only when the shortages are alleviated.

Now, it's time for your calesthenics because you don't exercise enough.

All of those things - smoking, drinking, eating, the lot - are all fine and good as long as you don't take it to excess. We live in a society and your actions have consequences. People shouldn't be allowed to eat themselves into morbid obesity and so on. It's completely unreasonable and it harms people around them.

[LaMont Cranston]

AnInconvenientScotsman, Gee, I don't know anybody who is for morbid obesity; I know I'm not for it, and we all knows that, ultimately, it affects the larger society with lost production, increased health care costs, etc. However, just how to you intend to keep people from pigging out? Who is going to enforce that shit, and how are they going to do it?

Since War World II, obestity and the health problems related to it have become an epidemic in the USA, and as people in China and other places start eating like Americans, they turn into fat slobs too. America, regardless of how you feel about it and its problems, has succeeded in growing and producing so much food, and, yes, I know a lot of it is pure shit, that it's people can eat like pigs. I mean, how many countries in the world actually have all-you-can-eat places in virtually every town and city?

Please understand, I'm not saying I feel good about that situation. I don't. In an idealized world, I'd prefer that we fed everybody, there was no war, everybody had shelter, clothing, good water, opportunities to improve their lives and we weren't fucking over the environment. Still, we all have to live in the world the way it presently exists. In all my experience and studies and everything else, I can't see a system that works better than capitalism, and I can't see a government system that works better than democracy. Actually, what works best appears to be some kind of mixture of capitalist democracy with some socialism thrown in.

Please don't tell me that every democracy is flawed and filled with corruption. I'm painfully aware of that; we all are. What I'm saying is that I have yet to see a better set of concepts and ideas, and it's pretty obvious that some sort of idealized form of communism isn't one of them. Communism was tried, and it failed. Hey guys, it doesn't fucking work!

As rational human beings, I think considering ways to make the better place is a truly wonderful thing to do, but please don't try and sell the idea that communism would really work if we had only given it a fair chance.