What would a true communist society/country look like?

[sandinista]

Coito ergo sum

If the ideology is "freedom" then you're right.

That says it all right there. haha.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito ergo sum

If the ideology is "freedom" then you're right.

That says it all right there. haha.

That's right. In your book, communism isn't given a fair chance to succeed unless the whole world is communist. Otherwise those "outside influences" will sabotage the communist society. Very convenient ideology you have.

[Coito ergo sum]

s You can cling to some kind of utopian horseshit about idealized communism, if you so choose, or you can get on with your life. Communism is an anachronism. Get over it!

I'm still waiting for him to describe what his idealized communism would look like in the real world.

[sandinista]

You don't read posts very well do you?

[Coito ergo sum]

You don't read posts very well do you?

Maybe not. Can you link to the post where you provided that description? Or, cut and paste it? Much obliged.

[sandinista]

page one of this thread. Again, you want me to sit here and describe every aspect of an economic model to you? Like many people have already said as well, there is not one definition, variations will exist. You want a concise answer to a question that cannot be given a concise answer. In short form, I believe I already said this as well, a society based on people, not profits.

[Coito ergo sum]

page one of this thread. Again, you want me to sit here and describe every aspect of an economic model to you?

No. Just answer the basic questions about how your system would work in the real world.

Like many people have already said as well, there is not one definition, variations will exist.

What's your variation like?

You want a concise answer to a question that cannot be given a concise answer. In short form, I believe I already said this as well, a society based on people, not profits.

That tells us nothing.

In your world, can a person grow tomatoes in their back yard and sell them? Can they rent the cottage out back and keep the money?

How is it determined what size house a person can have? Can they own a house? Can they buy and sell a house? Can they build their own house?

How is "need" determined? Who says what a given individual "needs?"

How is "ability" determined? Who says what an individual is "able" to do or what work he must contribute?

Nothing you posted answers those real world questions, and those are the important questions. Everyone would love a world "based on people, not profits," but that doesn't tell anyone jack fucking squat about how their lives will work in such a system.

This is why communists or those advocating some form of communism never make sense to me. None of them will be specific as to how our lives will be led, day to day, under the system they advocate.

Look how many times you've used the evasion - "there are many different versions of communism." So what? I'm talking about the one YOU are advocating, if you had your druthers. You don't have to give a dissertation on all versions.

Why should anyone support what you're advocating if you won't explain it? And, the links you gave DON'T explain it. It explains it only at a level of "people not profits" generalizations. Great. We all, as I said, want people to live the best they can, and have the best lives - the greatest good for the greatest number, as some philosophers say. I want that same thing.

[Ian]

Sandinista doesn't know what he's really for. He just bitches about things he's against.

[sandinista]

You seem interested Coito ergo sum, here's a starter, look around the site and you should be able to find some answers. Starter.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1005burkett2.htm

[Coito ergo sum]

You seem interested Coito ergo sum, here's a starter, look around the site and you should be able to find some answers. Starter.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1005burkett2.htm

I've looked. It's not there.

I'm not going on a "do the research" hunt and peck to try to glean what YOU seem to already be aware of. Just post it, or cut and paste it.

Jesus - how fucking hard is it just to say whether in your communism a person can build a cottage out back of their house and rent it out and keep the rents? Why is it so fucking hard for you to just say what the answer is? What sort of research expedition do I have to go on to get you to state your position on a matter?

Dude - you're the one who keeps playing a shell game with the bevy of different "versions" of communism that are out there. I have no way of knowing which "version" you are espousing.

[RuleBritannia]

RuleBrittania, First of all, I can't speak for "all" communes, but I've studied a lot of them, particularly in the United States. From what I've seen, most communal living situations fall apart because of internal problems, and the problems don't have a fucking thing to do with capitalism. The main problem is that people enter into a community with unrealistic expectations, and, when reality sets in, they become disillusioned.

Citations?

There is an image that many people have that successful communes are composed of latter-day hippie types who engage in free sex, have crabs and other diseases, etc.

Nonsense, only a moron would believe that a commune was anything like that.

It appears to me that the communities that have survived and prospered have successfully integrated computers and other things into their chosen lifestyles.

So? And also, not true.

At some point, these groups figure out that it is better to get along with the society and do their thing instead of rejecting the greater society.

There's no such thing a "greater society".

During the 19th century, there were some notable communal experiements, including Oneida and Amana. The Oneida people ended up making silverware, and the Amana people ending up making refrigerators, washing machines and other appliances. So much for rejecting capitalism!

Making stuff isn't capitalism.

[PsychoSerenity]

You seem interested Coito ergo sum, here's a starter, look around the site and you should be able to find some answers. Starter.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1005burkett2.htm

I've looked. It's not there.

I'm not going on a "do the research" hunt and peck to try to glean what YOU seem to already be aware of. Just post it, or cut and paste it.

Jesus - how fucking hard is it just to say whether in your communism a person can build a cottage out back of their house and rent it out and keep the rents? Why is it so fucking hard for you to just say what the answer is? What sort of research expedition do I have to go on to get you to state your position on a matter?

Dude - you're the one who keeps playing a shell game with the bevy of different "versions" of communism that are out there. I have no way of knowing which "version" you are espousing.

The answer is yes, no, or maybe if, depending on what system you're in. Nearly all are possible - so answering that question is irrelevant - unless it's combined with a full description, in detail, of this non-existent society, including all laws, probably an alternative history since you did mention it needing to be relevant to the real world, a full social psychology study of the non-existent people in it, - you just can't expect to get a simple and satisfying answer to a question like that. If you don't want to read up on communist theory yourself, why are you asking the question?

[Coito ergo sum]

You seem interested Coito ergo sum, here's a starter, look around the site and you should be able to find some answers. Starter.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1005burkett2.htm

I've looked. It's not there.

I'm not going on a "do the research" hunt and peck to try to glean what YOU seem to already be aware of. Just post it, or cut and paste it.

Jesus - how fucking hard is it just to say whether in your communism a person can build a cottage out back of their house and rent it out and keep the rents? Why is it so fucking hard for you to just say what the answer is? What sort of research expedition do I have to go on to get you to state your position on a matter?

Dude - you're the one who keeps playing a shell game with the bevy of different "versions" of communism that are out there. I have no way of knowing which "version" you are espousing.

The answer is yes, no, or maybe if, depending on what system you're in.

Oh, for the love of FSM. I was asking about the one HE'S advocating....

[


Nearly all are possible

Really? What's the kind of communism called which involves the private ownership and rental of real estate, and private retention of the profits? Capitalist-Communism? But, we haven't even really gotten there, because sandinista wouldn't say if the version of communism that allows people to rent out private property for profit is what he's suggesting is the communism he wants?

[

- so answering that question is irrelevant - unless it's combined with a full description, in detail, of this non-existent society, including all laws, probably an alternative history since you did mention it needing to be relevant to the real world,

This is an evasion. If someone says, "I advocate system X for our society," it is NOT unfair or unreasonable to ask "what's our society going to look like in practice, when your system X is implemented." And, one need not also get into systems Y, Z, or A, B, C, which might be different versions. We're talking about the system advocated here by Sandinista.

[

a full social psychology study of the non-existent people in it, - you just can't expect to get a simple and satisfying answer to a question like that. If you don't want to read up on communist theory yourself, why are you asking the question?

The point is, I have read up on communist theory. And, I am familiar with what I think it is, but people keep telling me that there's some other versions out there that aren't what I'm talking about. And, when I ask a person what version he or she is talking about, they won't be specific.

We don't have to do any social psychology studies. If someone is advocating the benefits of a certain system, they better damn well be able to answer basic questions about how people will live in it. I can do that with capitalism. Why can't people do it with communism? Why would anyone support a political theory that they are unable to explain even the basics of on a real world level?

[Toontown]

Want to know what a true communist society would be like? Try talking to a few communists in a forum. Ask a few questions.

You won't get any answers to your questions, but you'll get a good idea what communists are like, which will give you a good idea what their society would be like.

[Coito ergo sum]

Want to know what a true communist society would be like? Try talking to a few communists in a forum. Ask a few questions.

You won't get any answers to your questions, but you'll get a good idea what communists are like, which will give you a good idea what their society would be like.

So, it's basically the same as I've run into? A lot of capitalism-bashing and platitudes about "people not profits" without any meat on the bones?

I mean, I just wanted to know if John Doe could grow tomatoes in the garden, sell them to his buddy for $10 and keep the money. That was too difficult to answer because of the complex web of "versions" of communism, that might either allow or deny that right, and that it would be some sort of sensitive balanced analysis (by whom we are not informed) that would occur down the line, after we've adopted communism, that would inform us of whether we would be allowed to sell tomatoes.

EDIT: But, see, the reason the advocates of communism WON'T answer the questions is because we all know the answer is NO. The means of production are to be held in common, by the state, and the state plans what should be produced. Private persons make no profit from the sale of vegetables, and it would not be permitted to sell such property to someone else. Similarly, John Doe would not be permitted to rent out his cottage in the back, because the writings of Marx and Engels are quite clear - there would be no private ownership of real property, and all rents are to be paid to the state. Of course, hardly anybody really wants to live in a society where you can't rent out the cottage and make some extra money.

Similarly, they won't tell you WHO will decide what an individuals needs are and WHO will decide what an individuals abilities are. They won't tell you that because it can't be the individual deciding for himself - otherwise, people won't necessarily act in the communal interest. The State must decide what each individual needs, and the State must decide what each individual is able to do. That means that the size and location of the house an individual lives in, and the amount of food he or she eats is a function of state authority, and the amount and kind of work the person does is likewise subject to state authority.