92,000 classified military documents leaked

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by AshtonBlack » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:40 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
AshtonBlack wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
AshtonBlack wrote:He's also had his staff and the staff of three national news papers to go over them, for weeks. It is possible that they have been read before publishing.
And we should trust all those people?
Not at all.
Skying the stuff out there and hoping it won't do any damage is a bad plan from the start, but I don't really think the perp cares if people will get killed because of this.
But as I mentioned, if the published documents do not compromise OpSec then why are they classified at all?
Stuff I did in '70-'72 is still classified, until '22. Other, later things are classified until much later than that.
Yes, for national security or political reasons? Also, by that logic this would never have happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Papers

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Feck » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:42 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
AshtonBlack wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
AshtonBlack wrote:He's also had his staff and the staff of three national news papers to go over them, for weeks. It is possible that they have been read before publishing.
And we should trust all those people?
Not at all.
Skying the stuff out there and hoping it won't do any damage is a bad plan from the start, but I don't really think the perp cares if people will get killed because of this.
But as I mentioned, if the published documents do not compromise OpSec then why are they classified at all?
Stuff I did in '70-'72 is still classified, until '22. Other, later things are classified until much later than that.
But is that to keep anybody safe or just to keep some things that would show the US in a bad light ?
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:44 pm

AshtonBlack wrote:Yes, for national security or political reasons?
Some of both.
Also, by that logic this would never have happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Papers
And?
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by AshtonBlack » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:52 pm

I'm comparing them. No-one has pointed to any part of the published documents that compromise current OpSec. They just say "it could jeopardize national security" as if that alone should shut down any conversation.

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:56 pm

AshtonBlack wrote:I'm comparing them. No-one has pointed to any part of the published documents that compromise current OpSec. They just say "it could jeopardize national security" as if that alone should shut down any conversation.
Okay, say one of the "staff" people, uncleared for this material of course, spotted something that would be worth a small fortune to somebody. One page out of 92,000, who's to know.
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Feck » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:09 pm

So a country that claims to be a Democracy that boasts about keeping the world safe can hide it's dirty laundry for ever Why ? because national security means not letting anyone know about the fucking terrible things that have been done !

I'm not just Bashing America on this one, many countries are the same ,the UK included . How can we trust that the things being done are in anyway in our interests esp as we know the west was happy to lie to us through the cold war and would support any and all actions by any and all psychotic fuckers out there as long as they claimed they were fighting communism.
It's one of the things about 'patriotism' I find upsetting . Masses of people waving flags and being proud of their noble country.... BUT it's not true is it !

Same mentality that the Pope is using to cover up child abuse ...."The Church over all is a force for good therefore it's evils can be covered up"

Well i don't believe that about any church or any country .
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:10 pm

Feck wrote:So a country that claims to be a Democracy that boasts about keeping the world safe can hide it's dirty laundry for ever Why ?
Ever have your life depend on good security?
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Feck » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:26 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Feck wrote:So a country that claims to be a Democracy that boasts about keeping the world safe can hide it's dirty laundry for ever Why ?
Ever have your life depend on good security?
Not my life but my liberty yes, and I do understand that Bad things sometimes need to be done for us BUT I don't trust your government ,or mine I know they are liars thieves and murderers .
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:27 pm

Feck wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Feck wrote:So a country that claims to be a Democracy that boasts about keeping the world safe can hide it's dirty laundry for ever Why ?
Ever have your life depend on good security?
Not my life but my liberty yes, and I do understand that Bad things sometimes need to be done for us BUT I don't trust your government ,or mine I know they are liars thieves and murderers .
And having civilians toss around classified documents improves the situation in what specific manner?
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Ian » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:34 pm

AshtonBlack wrote:I'm comparing them. No-one has pointed to any part of the published documents that compromise current OpSec. They just say "it could jeopardize national security" as if that alone should shut down any conversation.
Yes, it should.

I don't need to point to any particular part of the documents. Maybe nothing harmful whatsoever is in there, who knows. That'd be swell, but that's not the point: Wikileaks doesn't understand everything they've read, no matter whatever level of scrutinizing they did before releasing these. Just off the top of my head, I can tell you that diplomatic relations between the US and Pakistan (not exactly a trivial issue!) has already taken a hit. Look again at the White House statement about this mess. You'll see the word "Pakistan" mentioned about twenty times in three paragraphs. Those are the first efforts of damage control.

But did Wikileaks think much about diplomatic consequences? Or exposing sensitive intelligence sources? Or undermining the security of Allied facilities or personnel? Not much, considering they published tens of thousands of documents. I don't even know what sensitive information could be in some of them, and that's the point - neither did Wikileaks. But some people with intentions far less benign than debating this stuff on an internet forum are pouring through those papers right now, take my word for it.

Another word for classified is "private". Suppose I could hack the personal computers of everyone here and publish every single email, word document, spreadsheet and photograph I saw fit on the internet. All there for your family, friends and coworkers to browse at their leisure. Should I be able to claim that all information should be available to the public? That's Assange's bizarre, childish ideology. Free information for everybody, and damn the consequences.
Last edited by Ian on Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Feck » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:36 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Feck wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Feck wrote:So a country that claims to be a Democracy that boasts about keeping the world safe can hide it's dirty laundry for ever Why ?
Ever have your life depend on good security?
Not my life but my liberty yes, and I do understand that Bad things sometimes need to be done for us BUT I don't trust your government ,or mine I know they are liars thieves and murderers .
And having civilians toss around classified documents improves the situation in what specific manner?
I agree this is leak is potentially dangerous I'm not saying I think it's a good thing. I'm just pointing out that most of this stuff was NEVER going to see daylight NOT because it puts anybody at risk but that it shows the actions of our government and sections of our military in a bad light
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:27 am

So far, the main facts to be publicised from these documents are: -
  • There have been a greater number of civilian deaths in Afghanistan than admitted by the US military (and their allies.)
  • There has been speculation that Pakistani and Iranian intelligence agencies have been assisting the Taleban.
On the first point, there are always more civilian casualties in any conflict than get admitted - the first casualty of war is the truth and the prime concern of the propaganda machine is painting "our side" as the good guys - this includes emphasising the fact that "we" only attack military targets. Anyone that seriously believes that needs educating. :roll:

On the second point - what, really? Who would have thought that? The military thinks that those musselmen might be ganging up on us? Shurely shome mishtake. :tea:

If there was anything more damning in there, you can be sure it would have come to light by now. Storm in a teacup that will be wrapping tomorrow's fish and chips. Move on - nothing to see here.
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:32 am

Feck wrote:I agree this is leak is potentially dangerous I'm not saying I think it's a good thing. I'm just pointing out that most of this stuff was NEVER going to see daylight NOT because it puts anybody at risk but that it shows the actions of our government and sections of our military in a bad light
You'll never hear the really good stuff.
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Robert_S » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:39 am

15,000 documents is quite a lot. He should have said "Look guys, We've got these and if you don't come up with some Damn Good Reasons for us not to, we're going to release them"; then give the various agencies a few days to go over the documents in question and make a case.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:42 am

Robert_S wrote:15,000 documents is quite a lot. He should have said "Look guys, We've got these and if you don't come up with some Damn Good Reasons for us not to, we're going to release them"; then give the various agencies a few days to go over the documents in question and make a case.
Say someone keeps trying to guess your PIN number. You can tell him he's wrong, or you can shut up and tell him to stop. Or you can let it play out until he gets it right. Same thing with these documents. Some of them may be more critical than we know, but if we make a fuss over one particular document you can bet it going to be all over the web in 24 seconds.
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