How do religions start?

[mistermack]

It is groupthink - not lies - certainly not deliberate, malicious lies.

Ok, but the vast majority of the lies told to support religion are not considered malicious by the liar. They generally believe they are acting with the best intentions, and that the end justifies the means. I'm not attempting to discriminate between lies on this thread, although they can of course be very very different in motive and effect.
If you believe one thing, and say another, even with the best of intentions, it's a lie.
If you state something as a fact, when you're not really sure, that's a lie. Because you are effectively saying ' I am sure ' when you know you're not.

The lie is to oneself. And it is made very early in life. Once you convince yourself, lying to everyone else is easy - because it is not really lying at all! Not unless you class passing on hearsay that you truly believe to be true, lying. Personally, I reserve the word "lie" for more deliberate acts of deception.

Yes in one way, no in another. If you really and truly convince yourself, then of course you're not lying. But if you have doubts, and speak as if you are certain, then, as previously, I think that's lying.
.

[Azathoth]

Most modern religion grow out of great business sense. L Ron Hubbard and Ayn Rand are prime examples of people selling a product very well

[TBB]

I agree with the black and white bit, which is why I'm objecting to you saying all religions start out as people lying. We agree it's never simple, yes? But making a sweeping assumption about anything is usually a bad idea, and never a good one.

Fair enough, but I would never have used the word all, or tried to give that impression. But I would claim that the huge majority of religions start that way.
Did Manson believe the crap he was spouting? Maybe he did, now and then, with the right drugs on board. But mostly I think he just didn't care, and just enjoyed the attention.
It's not even clear if Jesus even believed he had any connection with 'God'. We only have what people wrote about him, and if you look at the avalanche of invention in Ireland following that event, you can see what could have been invented after Jesus' death.
I was there in Ireland at the time, and was watching people on the TV news, and even listening to them talking. I know pure invention and wishful thinking when I see it and hear it. When you asked them a question, you could see the invention going on, in their faces. It really was incredible.
.

I'd be interested in seeing studies that look at exactly how religions start.

Pascal Boyer "Religion Explained." - pretty good read
Scott Atran "In Gods we Trust"- also, pretty good read

Boyer sites lots of anthropological studies that you may find even more interesting than the books.

[TBB]

Okay, I'm a historian, I assume people are lying about something whenever they say anything. Please don't assume I'm stupid because I don't agree with you.

Ok, historian, if you're not stupid, you will know perfectly well that I didn't say that. So you must be deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote, for some strange reason.
Also, if you're not stupid, you will know that there is no black and white. People can start out lying, and end up believing their own lies.
Or they can be deluded, but know deep down they are just inventing. People drift in and out of 'sanity'. I'm giving the opinion that the vast majority of Religions start with a concious lie.
.

Can you be specific with you belief on this subject. What major Religion do you profess to have begun as a lie? And from this specific example what was the motivation. I have read enough of your general statements to understand the point your trying to make; but I would like to see you develop a specific example, of say Christianity or Judaism and precisely what motivation there was.

[Animavore]

Okay, I'm a historian, I assume people are lying about something whenever they say anything. Please don't assume I'm stupid because I don't agree with you.

Ok, historian, if you're not stupid, you will know perfectly well that I didn't say that. So you must be deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote, for some strange reason.
Also, if you're not stupid, you will know that there is no black and white. People can start out lying, and end up believing their own lies.
Or they can be deluded, but know deep down they are just inventing. People drift in and out of 'sanity'. I'm giving the opinion that the vast majority of Religions start with a concious lie.
.

Can you be specific with you belief on this subject. What major Religion do you profess to have begun as a lie? And from this specific example what was the motivation. I have read enough of your general statements to understand the point your trying to make; but I would like to see you develop a specific example, of say Christianity or Judaism and precisely what motivation there was.

Try this one. Jesus was a cult leader. An apocalyptic preacher who preached end times to happen within' the life time of his followers. Jesus gets killed unexpectedly without his prophesy fulfilled. So what do his followers who have abandoned their families to be with him do? Do they go home and tell them "Sorry. I was wrong?" No. Instead they preach bollox about him returning.
Totally plausible situation which fits in with the reality of doomsday cults (see When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of A Modern Group that Predicted the Destruction of the World by Leon Festinger).

[TBB]

Okay, I'm a historian, I assume people are lying about something whenever they say anything. Please don't assume I'm stupid because I don't agree with you.

Ok, historian, if you're not stupid, you will know perfectly well that I didn't say that. So you must be deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote, for some strange reason.
Also, if you're not stupid, you will know that there is no black and white. People can start out lying, and end up believing their own lies.
Or they can be deluded, but know deep down they are just inventing. People drift in and out of 'sanity'. I'm giving the opinion that the vast majority of Religions start with a concious lie.
.

Can you be specific with you belief on this subject. What major Religion do you profess to have begun as a lie? And from this specific example what was the motivation. I have read enough of your general statements to understand the point your trying to make; but I would like to see you develop a specific example, of say Christianity or Judaism and precisely what motivation there was.

Try this one. Jesus was a cult leader. An apocalyptic preacher who preached end times to happen within' the life time of his followers. Jesus gets killed unexpectedly without his prophesy fulfilled. So what do his followers who have abandoned their families to be with him do? Do they go home and tell them "Sorry. I was wrong?" No. Instead they preach bollox about him returning.
Totally plausible situation which fits in with the reality of doomsday cults (see When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of A Modern Group that Predicted the Destruction of the World by Leon Festinger).

Sure! Festinger's Cognitive Dissonance Theory has shown how individuals can't dismiss a belief of theirs when the reality becomes counterfactual. However, this is not how the religion started. This is holding onto previously established beliefs . . . in the face of countermanding facts.

There is no doubt in my mind that cog dis played a huge role in developing a lot of beliefs. However, it does not satisfy the inquiry of the OP.

[Animavore]

Okay, I'm a historian, I assume people are lying about something whenever they say anything. Please don't assume I'm stupid because I don't agree with you.

Ok, historian, if you're not stupid, you will know perfectly well that I didn't say that. So you must be deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote, for some strange reason.
Also, if you're not stupid, you will know that there is no black and white. People can start out lying, and end up believing their own lies.
Or they can be deluded, but know deep down they are just inventing. People drift in and out of 'sanity'. I'm giving the opinion that the vast majority of Religions start with a concious lie.
.

Can you be specific with you belief on this subject. What major Religion do you profess to have begun as a lie? And from this specific example what was the motivation. I have read enough of your general statements to understand the point your trying to make; but I would like to see you develop a specific example, of say Christianity or Judaism and precisely what motivation there was.

Try this one. Jesus was a cult leader. An apocalyptic preacher who preached end times to happen within' the life time of his followers. Jesus gets killed unexpectedly without his prophesy fulfilled. So what do his followers who have abandoned their families to be with him do? Do they go home and tell them "Sorry. I was wrong?" No. Instead they preach bollox about him returning.
Totally plausible situation which fits in with the reality of doomsday cults (see When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of A Modern Group that Predicted the Destruction of the World by Leon Festinger).

Sure! Festinger's Cognitive Dissonance Theory has shown how individuals can't dismiss a belief of theirs when the reality becomes counterfactual. However, this is not how the religion started. This is holding onto previously established beliefs . . . in the face of countermanding facts.

There is no doubt in my mind that cog dis played a huge role in developing a lot of beliefs. However, it does not satisfy the inquiry of the OP.

Well seeing as Jesus was a cult leader I've no reason to think he was much different to any of these guys.





A completely deluded and charismatic person but ultimately a lying sack of shit.

[TBB]

I don't know? There are a lot of Theories . . . The Lying Piece of Shit Theory has escaped my scrutiny I guess! Ha! Hey were on RDF I think I remember you?

[Animavore]

I don't know? There are a lot of Theories . . . The Lying Piece of Shit Theory has escaped my scrutiny I guess! Ha! Hey were on RDF I think I remember you?

Yep. I was on RDF. I guess no one really has the balls to call Jesus a lying sack of shit? Even other atheists
To me he's no different to that guy in Russia recently who had his followers lock themselves underground to avoid the apocalypse. I would've loved to have seen their faces when they stepped out and the world was still there. If Jesus was anything like the above mentioned and Muhammed he probably liked little girls too. Maybe even little boys. Of course I could never prove such a thing.

[TBB]

I don't know? There are a lot of Theories . . . The Lying Piece of Shit Theory has escaped my scrutiny I guess! Ha! Hey were on RDF I think I remember you?

Yep. I was on RDF. I guess no one really has the balls to call Jesus a lying sack of shit? Even other atheists
To me he's no different to that guy in Russia recently who had his followers lock themselves underground to avoid the apocalypse. I would've loved to have seen their faces when they stepped out and the world was still there. If Jesus was anything like the above mentioned and Muhammed he probably liked little girls too. Maybe even little boys. Of course I could never prove such a thing.

Well, I just barely have concluded that Jesus even existed as an historical figure . . . whether he was a liar . . . or made into a liar, by pious followers, I dont think we can say. What evidence can we evaluate to determine he was a liar? Good talking with you.

[Animavore]

I don't know? There are a lot of Theories . . . The Lying Piece of Shit Theory has escaped my scrutiny I guess! Ha! Hey were on RDF I think I remember you?

Yep. I was on RDF. I guess no one really has the balls to call Jesus a lying sack of shit? Even other atheists
To me he's no different to that guy in Russia recently who had his followers lock themselves underground to avoid the apocalypse. I would've loved to have seen their faces when they stepped out and the world was still there. If Jesus was anything like the above mentioned and Muhammed he probably liked little girls too. Maybe even little boys. Of course I could never prove such a thing.

Well, I just barely have concluded that Jesus even existed as an historical figure . . . whether he was a liar . . . or made into a liar, by pious followers, I dont think we can say. What evidence can we evaluate to determine he was a liar? Good talking with you.

Well he was an apocalyptic preacher as I said. He preached end times to happen within the lifetime of his followers...

(Mat 16:28) Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

...clearly he pulled this out of his arse. Whether he believed his own nonsense is something I'm not sure we could ever know.

[TBB]

I don't know? There are a lot of Theories . . . The Lying Piece of Shit Theory has escaped my scrutiny I guess! Ha! Hey were on RDF I think I remember you?

Yep. I was on RDF. I guess no one really has the balls to call Jesus a lying sack of shit? Even other atheists
To me he's no different to that guy in Russia recently who had his followers lock themselves underground to avoid the apocalypse. I would've loved to have seen their faces when they stepped out and the world was still there. If Jesus was anything like the above mentioned and Muhammed he probably liked little girls too. Maybe even little boys. Of course I could never prove such a thing.

Well, I just barely have concluded that Jesus even existed as an historical figure . . . whether he was a liar . . . or made into a liar, by pious followers, I dont think we can say. What evidence can we evaluate to determine he was a liar? Good talking with you.

Well he was an apocalyptic preacher as I said. He preached end times to happen within the lifetime of his followers...

(Mat 16:28) Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

...clearly he pulled this out of his arse. Whether he believed his own nonsense is something I'm not sure we could ever know.

Depending on how reliable the gospels are . . .

[Animavore]

I don't know? There are a lot of Theories . . . The Lying Piece of Shit Theory has escaped my scrutiny I guess! Ha! Hey were on RDF I think I remember you?

Yep. I was on RDF. I guess no one really has the balls to call Jesus a lying sack of shit? Even other atheists
To me he's no different to that guy in Russia recently who had his followers lock themselves underground to avoid the apocalypse. I would've loved to have seen their faces when they stepped out and the world was still there. If Jesus was anything like the above mentioned and Muhammed he probably liked little girls too. Maybe even little boys. Of course I could never prove such a thing.

Well, I just barely have concluded that Jesus even existed as an historical figure . . . whether he was a liar . . . or made into a liar, by pious followers, I dont think we can say. What evidence can we evaluate to determine he was a liar? Good talking with you.

Well he was an apocalyptic preacher as I said. He preached end times to happen within the lifetime of his followers...

(Mat 16:28) Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

...clearly he pulled this out of his arse. Whether he believed his own nonsense is something I'm not sure we could ever know.

Depending on how reliable the gospels are . . .

Well there's always that. There's not that much that can be proven but I find the apocalyptic theory to be the most plausible. I'm not moved by the theory that he never existed though it is possible. Obviously I find the Christian version to be completely implausible because the claim is just too fantastic to be real. There's a lot of stuff that just simply goes against what we know about reality.

[TBB]

Well there's always that. There's not that much that can be proven but I find the apocalyptic theory to be the most plausible.

For sure

I'm not moved by the theory that he never existed though it is possible.

It took a good couple of years but I can say there is ample evidence to support that Jesus was an historical figure.

Obviously I find the Christian version to be completely implausible because the claim is just too fantastic to be real. There's a lot of stuff that just simply goes against what we know about reality.

Thats like saying I find that Alice and Wonderland is not true.

I jumped on this thread because I get frustrated when people constantly talk about subjects that require an analysis of evidence in terms of what they "think." Who cares what one "thinks" -- whats your analysis of the evidence, thats what matters to me . . . It reminds me of the fucking Theists constantly telling me what they think .. no different

[Animavore]

I jumped on this thread because I get frustrated when people constantly talk about subjects that require an analysis of evidence in terms of what they "think." Who cares what one "thinks" -- whats your analysis of the evidence, thats what matters to me . . . It reminds me of the fucking Theists constantly telling me what they think .. no different

All I can offer are plausible scenarios based on the information we do have, which is fuck all, I would love if some archaeologists found some contemporary source, written by a sceptic, which gives details of the cult. Other than that I think what really happened is lost to us.