Feck wrote:How mean do you want to be ? would you like serious theological debate or do you just want to seriously JW bash ?
I don't really want to 'seriously JW bash', I would prefer just to blatantly challenge their rationality. Funnily, the girl returned yesterday with her Danish husband (She is originally from Florida but has moved here to Spain where I'm living) and invited me and my wife over to her house for food. My feeling is that she is very bored and is just involved with the whole JW thing for something to do, and despite her supreme knowledge of the bible, I think her faith isn't the strongest. I could be utterly wrong though, but I think I will accept the invite - should be fairly interesting.
Thanks for all the replies, and the wiki link, Feck.
I've just received a reply on email with comments on my article by the said JW. The whole piece was fairly vitriolic but she has chosen just to comment on a few sentences concerning the bible. Here is the small extract and her response (in italics & colour):
Unbelievably, there are some who believe that the bible is the actual and literal word of God. These texts, some of which were written 200 years
I would be interested to know which texts these are. Many apocryphal books were written after the death of Jesus, but they are not included in the Bible canon. after the death of Jesus, have been amended, translated and re-translated so many times that even religious scholars now agree that the statements and deeds in the bible have an accuracy of less than 20 percent. Regardless, if we accepted that the bible was the word of God then it’s a good starting point to argue against religion. The bible is a truly horrible book. It racks up a gruesome body count of nearly 2.5 million.
I assume that you are referring to the Holy Wars that God allowed the Israelites to wage against the Canaanites for the “Promised Land”. It is true that God did order the execution of the Hittites, Amorites, Perrizites, Hivites, and the Jebusites. What were those nations like, though? They are mostly remembered for the abhorrent practice of child sacrifice. Excavations have uncovered cemeteries for new born babies and “great numbers of jars containing the remains of children who had been sacrificed to Baal” (Henry Hally, historian). Even with that history, they still had a chance to escape execution. Unlike other nations, Israel was required (under the Mosaic Law) to offer terms of peace (De. 20:10-15). So they didn’t have to die. This is only one aspect of this issue, but I think it’s compelling. It advocates slavery, abuse of women and the killing of disobedient children. Regarding slavery the Bible uses the term slave in a number of different contexts. True, a system of servitude existed among God’s ancient people, but that did not resemble the tyrannical form of bondage that has existed throughout history. Jehovah provided guidelines to protect slaves (mostly subjugated peoples from war). This subjugation while not ideal was a better alternative than what other nations were doing at the time. Most nations at that time did not have a humane way for dealing with prisoners of war. Consider the Assyrians who hunted prisoners of war for sport and cut off their eyes and ears for the fun of it. There were strict guidelines as to how subjugated peoples were to be treated. Note a few of the following:
1. God’s Law stated that kidnapping and selling a human was punishable by death. Exodus 21:16
2. If a slave died because his master beat him, the master was to be punished with death.
Exodus 21:12
3. A slave who was maimed by his master had to be set free.
Exodus 21:26, 27
4. Women captives could become slaves, or they could be taken as wives. But they were not to be used for mere sexual gratification. That was truly merciful if you consider what their fate would have been with other ancient peoples.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
5. Some Jews voluntarily became slaves to their fellow Jews in order to repay debts. This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty. Furthermore, at key junctures in the Jewish calendar, slaves were to be released if they so desired. The fact that provision was made to allow some to remain with their master clearly indicates that Israelite slavery was not abusive.
Exodus 21:2-6
Without getting into too many details, the enslavement of the Canaanites was actually prophesied much earlier in the Bible. It was a punishment for them. You can read the prophecy in Genesis 9:25-27. The fact that this actually happened is more of a proof that the Bible is a unique book because it tells history in advance. The Israelites were not a mighty nation, nor were they numerous. The fact that they were able to defeat stronger, better armed forces is counterintuitive. Yet, it was prophesied and the prophecy was fulfilled. So, yes there was servitude and slavery in the Bible, but the circumstances are so different that it cannot be compared to what we know slavery to be.
I find the charge that the Bible advocates the abuse of women to be spurious. The Bible principles regarding how people are to be treated is clear and it does not allow for the abuse of anybody, much less women. It is true that God has assigned men and women different roles. I find that most people consider this distasteful, but are you calling it abuse? I need more information to respond to that claim.
Under the Jewish system, a boy became a man at the age of 30 (1 Chronicles 23:1-5). That’s when he became eligible for various types of service in religious duties. So it is true that the bible does advocate the death penalty for “children” (persons under 30 years of age). However, there are no documented cases of executions of small children in the Bible.
Any thoughts on this from a moral perspective?
You're from there too!
I have seen his fnorg, and though impressive, it still clearly shows the stitch marks...
