Jehovah's Witness Visit

[Escombros]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and this is my first post. I came across the old Dawkins forum and was sad to see that it was no longer running after reading some very detailed and interesting posts.

I am an atheist and have a healthy skepticism of most things, although I am not that well read on evolutionary biology, or science generally, nor the bible or other religious books, yet I am also not completely ignorant.

The reason for my post is I had a visit from some Jehovah's Witnesses the other day, and rather than turn them away I thought I'd listen to what they had to say, probably for comedy value rather than anything else. I wasn't sure what they believed in but was quite surprised when a lot of my protestations about religion, in particular the damage it has caused, were met with agreement. I now understand that they believe the bible to be the literal word of God, believe in Adam & Eve, the great flood, and all the other mumbo jumbo. But rather then being forecful with their beliefs, I found them to be quite pleasant and intelligent people, which left me a bit dumbfounded, thinking how can such seemingly nice and rational people hold such outlandish beliefs. Because they liberally quoted the bible, and because of my ignorance of it, I felt I was on the back foot, and didn't do a very good job of debunking some of the things they said. For instance, their main argument for why evolution is a myth was the fact that different species can't mate. Of course, to me that is no reason to then believe in a magic man in the clouds, but with my limited knowledge I couldn't effectively refute their claims.

So, the reason for this post...

They are going to come back to visit me soon, simply because I was fascinated by these people and accepted their invitation to return. If any atheists on this forum are familiar with the JW's beliefs, I would like to ask what is the best way to confound these people and which of their beliefs are the easiest to refute, counter, or simply to expose as preposterous.

Thanks in advance.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I have a sign on my front door:

Our dogs are fed on the bodies of Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon missionaries.

I don't get many knock-knocks.

[Rum]

Firstly welcome! A nice post to introduce yourself with if I may say.

Secondly - don't waste your time. There are many many logical and rational arguments you could use - as an athesit you are probably aware of most of them and if you are not they are easily found.

The point is that their faith is not amenable to rationality. Nothing you could say I would suggest, especially when it comes to such outrageously in your face bonkers beliefs will shift them. By all means call up the usual counter arguments - it might sow a seed of doubt, but you won't d- convert them there and then. Of that I have no doubt!

Welcome again!

[Link]

First things first welcome


You may want to start an introduction thread in the welcome section.

Unfortunately I never get JWs visiting as we have some living next door to us that have "had a word" to ensure we don't get bugged, which is very nice of course unless you fancy a bit of a tear up.

The evolution argument they put forth is utter nonsense and shows they don't understand evolution by natural selection at all.... Seriously the fact that a dog and a cat can't breed as a supposed refutation just shows plain ignorance of the theory.

I'm at work at the mo so can't give you a full response but I'm sure some others will be along shortly to suggest some good books & resources to further your knowledge and allow you to hold a proper debate with your visitors next time.

[Pappa]

Hi, Escombros. Welcome to the forum.

I've known one Jehovah's Witness before and I found some of their beliefs quite unusual. Often it seemed like they had these curious beliefs just to make their worldview fit properly.

The species thing is a good example of that. Different species can mate and they often do where their ranges overlap (if they are closely related). There are loads of natural hybrids (and some artificial ones too). I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but some species are know to be hybrids too.

[Link]

Hi, Escombros. Welcome to the forum.

I've known one Jehovah's Witness before and I found some of their beliefs quite unusual. Often it seemed like they had these curious beliefs just to make their worldview fit properly.

The species thing is a good example of that. Different species can mate and they often do where their ranges overlap (if they are closely related). There are loads of natural hybrids (and some artificial ones too). I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but some species are know to be hybrids too.

There are a few the obvious one is the Mule a cross of a female Horse and a male Donkey

then you have the Zeedonk

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

A cross between a Donkey and a Zebra

The Liger

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

A cross between the Lion and Tiger

The Wholphin, a fertile but very rare cross between a false killer whale and a bottlenose dolphin.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

However prepare for the JW's to claim that these aren't true hybrids because they are all the same "kinds" of animal much like young earth creationists do.

[Escombros]

Thanks for the quick responses and the welcomes.

Yes, they have already used the argument that it is possible to interbreed with the same 'kinds' of animals, as you stated.

As for not bothering talking to these people, I can understand that it may seem futile, and I have met some JWs before who were thoroughly unpleasant and forecful with their dogma, as well as having some Mormons on my doorstep who were just clearly insane. But these two I've just met seem fairly reasonably minded and are quite prepared to listen to what I have to say, with respect. Of course, I'm not so gullible as to think I'm going to make them turn away from their spurious faith. I just want a real killer argument that they will really struggle with. I've also sent one of them a link to an article i wrote online arguing that religious belief does more harm than good. She said she will read it and write in notes where she thinks i may have been inaccurate. When I get this I would like to share it with everyone here, because I know it will be replete with bible references.

Again, thanks for the welcome and the speedy replies.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

There's a shitload around here but I've never had to speak with one. There is a mormon who was in 6th year in my school, though, who constantly tried to get people to go to his Church or whatever they call them. It's best just ignoring that type of religious nutcase.

They also seem to insist going door to door all day, in suits, when it's 25C outside. Like I said...nutters

[colubridae]

And some tosser called colubridae

a cross between a human and a sheep.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Ask them how come Matthew and Luke both give a full genealogy from David to Joseph but the two are different.

Ask them how come in Matthew, Judas throws the 30 pieces of silver to the ground in the temple and goes and hangs himself, but in Acts, he uses the same money to buy a field and he falls over in it, spilling his guts in the process.

Or just google bible contradictions - there are plenty more.

On the subject of evolution, read Dawkins' latest, "The Greatest Show on Earth." It presents the overwhelming arguments for evolution in simple to understand terms. If you want something a little more meaty, try "Evolution: What the fossils say and why it matters" by D R Prothero.

And remember that no matter how reasonable they appear, it is an act. They practice appearing so benign and understanding. Press them on blood transfusion and why they think people should be allowed to die rather than receive one. They are far more bonkers than they appear on the surface.

Oh, and welcome to Ratz.

[charlou]

Hi Escombros, welcome.

I felt I was on the back foot, and didn't do a very good job of debunking some of the things they said. For instance, their main argument for why evolution is a myth was the fact that different species can't mate. Of course, to me that is no reason to then believe in a magic man in the clouds, but with my limited knowledge I couldn't effectively refute their claims.

ohhhhhhh, you really need to read up on this. Richard Dawkins's book The Greatest Show On Earth may be useful to you .. just for starters ...

[Feck]

How mean do you want to be ? would you like serious theological debate or do you just want to seriously JW bash ?

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

How mean do you want to be ? would you like serious theological debate or do you just want to seriously JW bash ?

Sorry but I read that a "Jew bash". You anti-semite

[Feck]

How mean do you want to be ? would you like serious theological debate or do you just want to seriously JW bash ?

Sorry but I read that a "Jew bash". You anti-semite

I've had an Israeli rabbi "couch surf " at my house I'm NOT ..............but I do have a special relationship with JW's :twisted:

[Xamonas Chegwé]

How mean do you want to be ? would you like serious theological debate or do you just want to seriously JW bash ?

Sorry but I read that a "Jew bash". You anti-semite

I've had an Israeli rabbi "couch surf " at my house I'm NOT ..............but I do have a special relationship with JW's :twisted:

... and Feck gets the bones - so everyone's a winner!