Mass Explained

Farsight
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Mass Explained

Post by Farsight » Thu May 27, 2010 2:59 pm

MASS EXPLAINED

You know that energy is an intangible thing. You can’t hold energy in the palm of your hand, because energy is to do with stress, which is akin to pressure, and you need a volume of stress to get the dimensionality right.

You know that mass is a tangible thing. You can hold an object in your hand and feel the mass of it. You even know that E=mc², and that the intangible thing called energy can be used to make the tangible thing called mass. But you don’t know how, because you don't know how simple it really is.

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The answer is all down to motion. Or the lack of it. You have to get relative, because motion is relative, and you have to think in terms of momentum and inertia, because there's a symmetry between the two that depends on who you say is moving. A 10kg cannonball is a tangible thing, you can hold it in the palm of your hand and feel the mass of it. And if it’s travelling at 1m/s it’s “got” kinetic energy as quantified by KE=½mv2. It’s also “got” momentum, as quantified by p=mv, and it’s hard to stop. Brace yourself, then apply some constant braking force by catching it in the midriff. Ooof, and you feel the energy/momentum. Kinetic energy is looking at this in terms of stopping distance, whilst momentum is looking at it in terms of stopping time. The measure we call momentum is conserved in the collision because your gut and the cannonball shared a mutual force for the same period of time. The measure we call kinetic energy isn’t conserved, because some of the mass in motion is redirected into your deformation and heat and bruises, all of which involve mass in motion, but scattered motion instead of the tidy motion of a mass moving relative to you. Or you moving relative to it, because all the while you were never too sure whether it was you moving or the cannonball.

When we consider that the cannonball is stationary and it’s you moving at 1m/s, the cannonball hasn’t got any kinetic energy or momentum, all it’s got is inertia. You’re attempting to move it and accelerate it to your velocity of 1m/s, and that makes it harder to start, not harder to stop. In this respect momentum and inertia can be considered as two different aspects of the same thing, and that thing is energy.

You can get a better feel for this with a gyroscope. Waggle it back and forth. See how insubstantial it feels. Now wind the string round the spindle, grasp it tight, and pull. You give the gyroscope some circular motion, you are in effect pulling tension out, and since tension is negative stress, you are introducing stress. Your gyroscope is now humming, maybe precessing a little. When you try to waggle it you can feel the angular momentum working against you. It feels more substantial than before. You can feel more resistance to motion, more "inertia", and that’s the secret of E=mc². The gyroscope feels more “massive” because you have added energy.

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You’re beginning to get a feel for mass, but to really understand it you have to stop thinking of momentum as something that a mass has got. A thing that’s got energy can have momentum without having any mass. Like a photon. A photon has energy/momentum but it has no mass. And a photon has a size but it has no surface. You might therefore think a photon is something really strange, but it isn’t. You’ve seen something similar down on the beach. You’re playing in the surf and along comes a massive wave. You know it’s a wave, a travelling stress, and you know it has no mass because the water has the mass. It's a pressure wave, you can see how big it is, and you know it has no surface because the ocean has the surface. But the wave does have energy/momentum, enough to knock you and your girlfriend flat on your back, laughing and screaming with salt water up your nose. It’s both insubstantial and substantial, both tangible and intangible. Because whilst you can’t grab hold of it, it can grab hold of you.

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When we think about the photon some more, we know that it isn’t some miniature cannonball. It’s a transverse wave in space, it’s got a wavelength and a frequency instead of a mass, so instead of KE=½mv² and p=mv we express energy as E=hf and momentum as p=hf/c. The h is Planck’s constant of 6.63 x 10^-34 Joule-seconds, and is an “action”, which is energy multiplied by time, or alternatively momentum multiplied by distance. The f is frequency per second, and the speed of light c is distance divided by time, converting a stopping-distance measure of energy into a stopping-time measure of momentum.

The use of the word “action” is important here. It means what it says, and should doubly remind us that the photon is not some billiard-ball particle. It truly is an action. It's akin to a kick. In itself it’s intangible, but like a kick it delivers a quite tangible effect. We can see this in action via Compton scattering, which makes the sky look blue:

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When a photon interacts with a free electron, the electron receives a “bump” and is sent recoiling off at an angle, while the photon is deflected and its wavelength is increased. The underlying reason for this is easy to grasp. Look at the central portion of the squiggle that is the incident photon in the picture above, turn it upside down, and imagine it’s a U-shaped steel bar. Now grasp it tight and unbend it a little. This increases the distance between the two ends and changes the angle between them. In similar vein the photon wavelength increases and the direction of propagation is altered whilst the energy decreases. Meanwhile the electron gains energy and receives an alteration to its velocity vector, or in other words: it moves.

Now remember your relativity: there is no absolute motion. Look again at the picture. Imagine you’re that target electron, but you’re not at rest. Imagine it’s you moving instead of the photon. Bump, and you’re sent flying off at an angle. It would feel like you hit something solid instead of a photon. It would feel like a bad flight with turbulence and so many air pockets it’s like riding over rocks. Instead of delivering a bump, the photon would be a bump. It wouldn’t feel like something intangible and insubstantial, it would feel like something tangible and substantial. It would feel like the photon had inertia instead of momentum. It would feel like the photon had mass.

But a photon doesn't have mass. A photon isn’t just sitting in one place, it always travels at c. You can’t nail it down like you can nail down a ripple in a rubber mat. So how do you keep a travelling volume of stressed space in the same place? It’s easy when you know how. Imagine you’ve got a couple of “free electron” table tennis bats, and you’re good at topspin. If you bat that photon just right, you can change its direction and give it some more energy/momentum. It’s called an Inverse Compton, like the picture of Compton scattering but with the arrows going the other way. Then you hit the photon with the other bat to change its direction again. Repeat in rapid succession until you’ve got a kind of hexagon going, then bat even faster until you’ve got a miniature electromagnetic swirl that is your photon going round in circles like this O. Now keep chopping away, but close your eyes, like you might close your eyes when you’re feeling the repulsion between a couple of magnets. You can feel something there between your bats. What you can feel is basically mass. You've “stopped” the photon and converted the momentum into inertia. You’ve made a “mass”.

OK, you haven’t really stopped the photon because it’s still travelling at c, but it’s close enough. Bah, I hear you say, there are no table tennis bats in particle physics. And a photon always travels at 299,792,458 m/s. You can’t really "stop" a photon. Oh yes you can. It’s simple. You use something called pair production:

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In pair production, a gamma photon of a little over 1,022 thousand electron volts (keV) is effectively "broken" over a nucleus to create an electron and a positron of 511 keV apiece. Apart from some essential losses associated with the motion and the separation of the particles, the energy/momentum is reconfigured as mass. Pair production converts travelling kinetic energy or relativistic mass into non-travelling energy or rest mass. In effect the momentum is “stopped” and now appears as inertia, and the electron and the positron are like two stable eddies spinning off in opposite directions. Each can be modelled as a self-contained vortex, or vorton. Each is a photon going round and round in a circle, tied into something called a toroidal soliton. It isn’t just a circle, it's a circle with a twist, and it needs the twist to stay tied up. This twist makes it a knot, what’s called a “trivial knot”, which is the simplest knot you can get. An electron twists and turns one way, the positron twists and turns the other, so they're like mirror images with different "handedness" or chirality. You can think in terms of a möbius doughnut, as depicted on the left below. Note the similarity between the dark line as compared to the balloon knot on the right.

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It’s rather like a möbius strip. The electron’s component photon is going round twice whilst twisting round once to return to its starting position and orientation. The electron is therefore a spin ½ particle exhibiting a jitter or zitterbewegung. It's both a transverse wave and a particle, and hence it's a soliton and hence it exhibits wave/particle duality. It is however somewhat difficult to depict. It isn't a solid object, and whilst we can draw a representation of it with contour lines, it has no actual surface. It has as much surface as an ocean wave, remembering that the ocean has the surface. The electron has as much surface as a light beam. The only “surface” to it is like the repulsion you’d feel between a pair of magnets. However this is quite enough to create what we perceive as a solid object. The massless photon now exhibits mass, because it’s going round and round circling at the speed of light. It’s tied in one location, and whilst not idle, it’s no longer going anywhere with respect to you. We could say it’s going nowhere fast. So when you hit it, it’s you hitting the photon instead of the photon hitting you. The photon had momentum, and now it’s got inertia. It’s got mass. But we don’t call it a photon any more. We call it an electron.

All we had to do to create mass was “stop” the momentum of the photon. It isn't really stopped because it's still going round so now it's angular momentum. But now the photon isn't moving in aggregate with respect to you. So now it’s an electron, and the travelling energy is going nowhere fast so it’s "rest energy". That’s what mass really is. They call it rest mass, only it’s rest energy, and it’s not actually at rest. When all’s said and done, if it's the photon moving it's got momentum, but if it's you moving it's got inertia. That’s mass. It just depends on who's moving. Because momentum and inertia are the same thing. There's a symmetry between them. Because motion is relative, and that's what relativity is all about.

We can destroy mass just as easily by bringing an electron and positron together to reverse the process. The electron and the positron are just two opposite knots which cancel one another and annihilate, resulting in two 511 keV photons. It’s like the electron is a twist in your tight taut fishing line, and the positron is the opposite twist. Slide them together and twang, gone. The knots are no more, and the photons are off like a shot. And we do destroy mass easily. We do it every day. Annihilation is routine, we take pictures with it. It's called a PET scan, and if you're lucky there's one in a hospital near you:

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It really is that simple. Energy is usually a travelling stress like a photon, rippling through the volume of space like a pressure-pulse shooting through a ghostly block of transparent rubber. Mass is just how you measure it when it's tied in a knot so it's going nowhere fast. Or in other words:

Mass is a measure of the amount of energy that is not moving in aggregate with respect to the observer.

ChildInAZoo
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by ChildInAZoo » Thu May 27, 2010 4:08 pm

Please explain in detail the thought experiment wherein you claim that we should, "Look again at the picture. Imagine you’re that target electron, but you’re not at rest. Imagine it’s you moving instead of the photon." Since you base your argument on this, and it appears to be inconsistent with special relativity, you must provide some detailed account of this thought experiment or abandon your project.

Farsight
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Farsight » Thu May 27, 2010 7:16 pm

I've given you quite enough detail, and relativity tells you that motion is relative. A massless photon trapped in a mirrored box adds mass to that system. Let the photon out of the system, and the mass is reduced. The electron is a similar system, only when the photon escapes, no box remains. Hence it's trivial to see that an electron is a self-trapped photon.

You should abandon your dark matter project. it's a busted flush. Get out now before you're trampled in the stampede.

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Re: Mass Explained

Post by lpetrich » Thu May 27, 2010 9:37 pm

Farsight wrote:I've given you quite enough detail, and relativity tells you that motion is relative. A massless photon trapped in a mirrored box adds mass to that system. Let the photon out of the system, and the mass is reduced.
A photon has zero rest mass, though nonzero total mass-energy.
The electron is a similar system, only when the photon escapes, no box remains. Hence it's trivial to see that an electron is a self-trapped photon.
Photon self-trapping cannot happen. It would require some additional physical effect. Furthermore, even if it could happen, it could not produce a spin of 1/2.

Farsight, why don't you try to prove me wrong? Show me a self-consistent solution of Maxwell's equations that produces your electron model. I have Mathematica on hand, so I can test whatever you come up with.

ChildInAZoo
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by ChildInAZoo » Fri May 28, 2010 3:06 am

Farsight wrote:I've given you quite enough detail, and relativity tells you that motion is relative. A massless photon trapped in a mirrored box adds mass to that system. Let the photon out of the system, and the mass is reduced. The electron is a similar system, only when the photon escapes, no box remains. Hence it's trivial to see that an electron is a self-trapped photon.

You should abandon your dark matter project. it's a busted flush. Get out now before you're trampled in the stampede.
And your argument that I should abandon dark matter is that you won't give any details?

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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Farsight » Sun May 30, 2010 2:27 pm

lpetrich wrote:Farsight, why don't you try to prove me wrong? Show me a self-consistent solution of Maxwell's equations that produces your electron model. I have Mathematica on hand, so I can test whatever you come up with.
Because pair production and annihilation proves you wrong. The scientific evidence proves you wrong. And because it isn't my electron model. But when the latest paper on this is accepted by a journal I'll let you know.

ChildInAZoo
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by ChildInAZoo » Sun May 30, 2010 4:10 pm

Farsight wrote:
lpetrich wrote:Farsight, why don't you try to prove me wrong? Show me a self-consistent solution of Maxwell's equations that produces your electron model. I have Mathematica on hand, so I can test whatever you come up with.
Because pair production and annihilation proves you wrong. The scientific evidence proves you wrong. And because it isn't my electron model. But when the latest paper on this is accepted by a journal I'll let you know.
This is a big problem for your theory, Farsight: the only papers that you point to about this electron model are years old and they have obviously been rejected by physics journals. I am sure that when you have posted links to these papers on other forums, people have pointed out the mathematical and scientific flaws in the papers. Yet you continue to base your entire theory on the hope that someday there will be scientific support rather than actual scientific support.

But, again, I ask that you explain in detail what it means for a photon to be at rest.

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Twiglet
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Twiglet » Sun May 30, 2010 4:18 pm

ChildInAZoo wrote:
Farsight wrote:
lpetrich wrote:Farsight, why don't you try to prove me wrong? Show me a self-consistent solution of Maxwell's equations that produces your electron model. I have Mathematica on hand, so I can test whatever you come up with.
Because pair production and annihilation proves you wrong. The scientific evidence proves you wrong. And because it isn't my electron model. But when the latest paper on this is accepted by a journal I'll let you know.
This is a big problem for your theory, Farsight: the only papers that you point to about this electron model are years old and they have obviously been rejected by physics journals. I am sure that when you have posted links to these papers on other forums, people have pointed out the mathematical and scientific flaws in the papers. Yet you continue to base your entire theory on the hope that someday there will be scientific support rather than actual scientific support.

But, again, I ask that you explain in detail what it means for a photon to be at rest.
A photon doesn't experience time as a dimension, relative to itself, time stands still. I suspect that is the root of all this.

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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Trolldor » Sun May 30, 2010 6:39 pm

I keep adding 'Effect' in there expecting a plot synopsis or something.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

lpetrich
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by lpetrich » Mon May 31, 2010 12:27 am

Farsight wrote:
lpetrich wrote:Farsight, why don't you try to prove me wrong? Show me a self-consistent solution of Maxwell's equations that produces your electron model. I have Mathematica on hand, so I can test whatever you come up with.
Because pair production and annihilation proves you wrong.
They do NOT. Why don't you read some textbook of quantum electrodynamics some time?

Precision tests of QED - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Values of 1/alpha (reciprocal of fine-structure constant)
  • Quantum Hall Effect -- 137.035 997 9 (3 2)
  • Josephson Effect -- 137.035 977 0 (7 7)
  • Anomalous magnetic dipole moments
    • Electron -- 137.035 999 070 (98)
    • Muon
  • Atom-recoil measurements (Rb-87) -- 137.035 998 78 (91)
  • Neutron Compton wavelength -- 137.036 010 1 (5 4)
  • Hyperfine splitting
    • Hydrogen -- 137.036 0 (3)
    • Muonium -- 137.035 994 (18)
  • Lamb shift (2S(1/2) - 2P(1/2)) -- 137.036 8 (7).
  • Positronium
    • Energy-level difference (2S(3,1) - 1S(3,1)) -- 137.034 (16)
    • Decay of para-positronium: S(1,0) -- 137.00 (6)
    • Decay of ortho-positronium: S(3,1) -- 136.971 (6)
  • High-Energy Scattering
    • e+e- -> e+e-e+e- -- 136.5 (2.7)
    • e+e- -> e+e-mu+mu- -- 139.9 (1.2)
The scientific evidence proves you wrong.
You have yet to prove that mainstream physics cannot account for the effects that you cite.
And because it isn't my electron model.
Irrelevant. You're advocating it, so you ought to take responsibility for doing so.
But when the latest paper on this is accepted by a journal I'll let you know.
If it gets accepted, that is.

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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Farsight » Mon May 31, 2010 2:42 pm

lpetrich wrote:
Farsight wrote:
lpetrich wrote:Farsight, why don't you try to prove me wrong? Show me a self-consistent solution of Maxwell's equations that produces your electron model. I have Mathematica on hand, so I can test whatever you come up with.
Because pair production and annihilation proves you wrong.
They do NOT. Why don't you read some textbook of quantum electrodynamics some time?
They DO, and I have. And be aware that I'm not saying that QED is wrong. I'm describing the reality that underlies it. The evanescent wave is the reality behind virtual photons. A photon travels many paths because it's a travelling displacement, a distortion that distorts all the surrounding space, and where the distortion is, the photon is.

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Twiglet
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Twiglet » Mon May 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Farsight wrote:
lpetrich wrote:
Farsight wrote:
lpetrich wrote:Farsight, why don't you try to prove me wrong? Show me a self-consistent solution of Maxwell's equations that produces your electron model. I have Mathematica on hand, so I can test whatever you come up with.
Because pair production and annihilation proves you wrong.
They do NOT. Why don't you read some textbook of quantum electrodynamics some time?
They DO, and I have. And be aware that I'm not saying that QED is wrong. I'm describing the reality that underlies it. The evanescent wave is the reality behind virtual photons. A photon travels many paths because it's a travelling displacement, a distortion that distorts all the surrounding space, and where the distortion is, the photon is.

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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Farsight » Mon May 31, 2010 2:55 pm

ChildInAZoo wrote:This is a big problem for your theory, Farsight: the only papers that you point to about this electron model are years old and they have obviously been rejected by physics journals. I am sure that when you have posted links to these papers on other forums, people have pointed out the mathematical and scientific flaws in the papers. Yet you continue to base your entire theory on the hope that someday there will be scientific support rather than actual scientific support.
The scientific support is in the scientific evidence, and no, nobody has pointed out the mathematical and scientific flaws in those papers, and they have appeared in science journals. You're clutching at straws, ChildInAZoo, you're in denial, and now you're reduced to wishful thinking.
ChildInAZoo wrote:But, again, I ask that you explain in detail what it means for a photon to be at rest.
What kind of question is this? I've already made it perfectly clear that photons move at c. They aren't at rest. A photon trapped in a mirror box is moving back and forth at c. It isn't at rest even though its presence increases the mass of the system. But it does have an average location that is not moving. That's why the momentum now appears as inertia, because it's how you would see the photon momentum if you were the Compton-scattering electron and it was you moving instead of the photon. The electron is akin to the photon-in-a-mirror-box example, only the photon is going round and round at c rather than back and forth, and there is no box. The photon is trapped by itself. Its presence increases the mass of this system from zero, because it is the system. Only we don't call it a photon any more. We call it an electron.

I can't put it any simpler than this. Why don't you understand it? Why won't you understand it? Because this and all those other simple explanations that even a child can understand, blows away your precious dark matter. Talk about vested interest standing squarely in the way of scientific progress.

Get lost Twiglet.

ChildInAZoo
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Re: Mass Explained

Post by ChildInAZoo » Mon May 31, 2010 3:05 pm

Farsight wrote: And be aware that I'm not saying that QED is wrong. I'm describing the reality that underlies it. The evanescent wave is the reality behind virtual photons. A photon travels many paths because it's a travelling displacement, a distortion that distorts all the surrounding space, and where the distortion is, the photon is.
But the very idea that a photon is a distortion in space is contradictory to QED. So far, you can't even show how a photon becoming an electron can be consistent with the presence of charge in an electron. If you want to show that your ideas are actually describing QED, you have to show how they end up with the same mathematical theory as QED. Yet you refuse to do this.
The scientific support is in the scientific evidence, and no, nobody has pointed out the mathematical and scientific flaws in those papers, and they have appeared in science journals. You're clutching at straws, ChildInAZoo, you're in denial, and now you're reduced to wishful thinking.
If I was to post links to other forums, would that show that you were a liar? I will give you some time to think whether or not you want to retract your claim that, "nobody has pointed out the mathematical and scientific flaws in those papers".
What kind of question is this? I've already made it perfectly clear that photons move at c. They aren't at rest.
Yet you contradict yourself in the course of your argument. You write above, "Imagine it’s you moving instead of the photon." This is part of your explanation for mass. So I ask you to explain this part of your argument.
blows away your precious dark matter]
What in the above has anything to do with dark matter? Again you are making a prediction about dark matter without any details. Are you prepared to defend your claims about dark matter with actual details?

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Re: Mass Explained

Post by Farsight » Mon May 31, 2010 3:58 pm

ChildInAZoo wrote:But the very idea that a photon is a distortion in space is contradictory to QED.
No it isn't. Feynman said nobody knows why it works, and that we don't have a picture of the underlying reality.
ChildInAZoo wrote:So far, you can't even show how a photon becoming an electron can be consistent with the presence of charge in an electron.
Yes I did, in the Understanding Electromagnetism thread. The distortion travels through itself, so its path is distorted. At 511keV it's closed.
ChildInAZoo wrote:If you want to show that your ideas are actually describing QED, you have to show how they end up with the same mathematical theory as QED. Yet you refuse to do this.
Only because it will take too long, and is merely an attempt to derail the thread.
ChildInAZoo wrote:If I was to post links to other forums, would that show that you were a liar? I will give you some time to think whether or not you want to retract your claim that, "nobody has pointed out the mathematical and scientific flaws in those papers".
Post away. And repeat the arguments here. When you can't, we'll see that I'm not the liar.
ChildInAZoo wrote:Yet you contradict yourself in the course of your argument. You write above, "Imagine it’s you moving instead of the photon." This is part of your explanation for mass. So I ask you to explain this part of your argument.
Thin gruel. This is part of relativity+, and in relativity, motion is relative. So asking the reader to imagine that the photon is at rest in order to see the symmetry between momentum and inertia is perfectly legitimate. i make it clear that the photon is not at rest when It's in the electron configuration.
ChildInAZoo wrote:What in the above has anything to do with dark matter?
It explains why it doesn't exist.
ChildInAZoo wrote:Again you are making a prediction about dark matter without any details. Are you prepared to defend your claims about dark matter with actual details?
I already have. In How gravity works. You can pretend this doesn't give details, but it's so simple that no more detail is required. Here it is again in case you missed it:

It's energy that causes gravity, not matter per se. Matter only causes gravity because of the energy content. See The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity and look at page 185 where Einstein says "the energy of the gravitational field shall act gravitatively in the same way as any other kind of energy". A gravitational field is a region of space that contains extra energy and in itself causes gravity, hence an integration approach is required, as per page 201. But we don't consider a gravitational field to be dark matter. We don’t go looking for WIMPs. Yes, space is "dark", and the mass of a system is a measure of its energy content, so if you defined the space around a planet as a system, it has a mass of sorts. But it isn’t matter. It’s just space. What did Einstein say about space? Neither homogeneous nor isotropic. What does the FLRW metric say? ”The FLRW metric starts with the assumption of homogeneity and isotropy of space.” Spot the difference? Gravitational anomalies aren’t evidence for dark matter. Dark matter is just a hypothesis that attempts to explain them. And those who promote it sweep the raisins-in-the-cake analogy under the carpet. The universe expands, but the space within the galaxies doesn’t, because galaxies are gravitationally bound. So each and every galaxy is surrounded by a halo of inhomogeneous space. That’s a gμν gradient. It’s a gravitational field without any matter on the end of it. So when you hear people talking about the hunt for dark matter, bear this in mind.

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