Why c is the limit

Farsight
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Why c is the limit

Post by Farsight » Sun May 30, 2010 1:53 pm

WHY c IS THE LIMIT

To understand why nothing can go faster than the speed of light, you have to have an idea of what energy is and what mass is. In barest essence, energy is a volume of stressed space, and it's usually travelling at c. You can start with a massless +1022keV photon and perform pair production to create an electron and a positron, both of which have mass. They also have spin angular momentum and magnetic dipole moment, and the Einstein-de Haas effect demonstrates that the angular momentum is "of the same nature as the angular momentum of rotating bodies as conceived in classical mechanics". There's something going round and round in there, the rotation is real. But it isn't a simple rotation like a planet, it's a two-component rotation where you "spin the spin axis", hence the Stern-Gerlach effect.

Image

The mass is the result of a symmetry between momentum and inertia. A +1022keV photon has energy/momentum but no inertia. It's massless, and you can't make it travel at anything other than c. But after pair production where conservation of angular momentum applies, it's split into two 511keV photons, each of which is going round and round at c. One's the electron, the other one's the positron. They both have mass because the momentum is no longer moving laterally with respect to you, hence you see it as inertia, because it's like the photon isn't moving any more, because it's going nowhere fast. Because mass is a measure of the amount of energy that is not moving in aggregate with respect to the observer. It's something like the photon in a mirror box which increases the mass of that system, only the electron or positron is a system where a 511keV photon traps itself. Electron/positron annihilation unleashes the 511keV photons, and then there are no "boxes" left.

Of course, one of the problems of mass is that we use the word in many different ways. The accepted definition of mass is rest mass, which is the same thing as invariant mass, intrinsic mass, and proper mass. It's defined as the total energy of a system divided by c². There’s also active gravitational mass which tells you how much gravity the energy causes, and passive gravitational mass, which is a measure of how much an object is attracted by gravity. People also talk of inertial mass, which tells us how much force we need to apply to accelerate or decelerate an object. It doesn't apply for a photon because it travels at c, and you can't make it go faster or slower. Then there’s relativistic mass, which is just a measure of energy, which is why it applies to a photon. When you apply it to a cannonball travelling at 1000m/s, it’s a measure that combines the rest mass energy with the kinetic energy into total energy. It's important to note here that "rest mass" is better thought of as "rest energy", only for something like an electron the energy isn't actually at rest, because it's going round and round at c.

Kinetic energy is droll once you understand this. We use Compton scattering to move an electron, and in simple terms the electron is a photon going round in a circle like this ○. The Compton scattering effects an inverse Compton on the electron’s component photon, bending it like that U-shaped steel bar I mentioned in mass explained. But this photon is tied in a 511keV "knot". The deflection doesn’t break the knot. It stretches it like kicking a rubber ring, it alters the velocity vector and translates into motion. What you see is the same as what you’d see if you moved past the electron. It’s a photon travelling in a circular path, so if it’s side-on you'd see that circular path now looking like a helical path. One full turn round the helix represents the relativistic mass, the total energy. The circular component of this represents the rest mass. The difference represents the kinetic energy. It tells you how fast the energy that's going nowhere fast... is going somewhere!

Image

It’s ridiculously simple, but that’s how it is. The kinetic energy tells you how fast the energy that’s going nowhere fast is going somewhere. Because accelerating an electron is like trying to stretch a spring. Ever seen a split-ring spring? It's like a un-joined circle, like this: Ω. To get the electron moving we have to deform the ring into one turn round that helix. The energy required increases as we attempt to deform it further. As we accelerate more and more, the helix is effectively stretched straighter and straighter. But we can’t stretch it straighter than straight. A photon travels at c, it can’t travel in a straight line at c and still be going round and round at c. It would have to go faster than light to do that. And light doesn’t go faster than light. So matter can’t travel as fast as light. No way no how, and it’s easy when you know how. Matter can't travel at c because it's essentially "made of light", and pair production and annihilation is the scientific evidence that proves it.

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Twiglet
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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Twiglet » Sun May 30, 2010 2:06 pm

Alternatively, you could try understanding the very simple explanation provided by relativity:

E=mc^2

reformulates to

E=m0C^2 / (1-v^2/c^2) ^1/2

Consider the bottom line of the equation (1 -v^2/c^2).

As v approaches c, it is easy to see that (1 -v^2/v^2) approaches 0.
Dividing any number by zero yields infinity as the answer, so relativity suggests that it would need infinite energy to propel any mass to the speed of light.

What's the evidence supporting it?

There's an enormous body of evidence which supports it. Particle accelerators speed up elementary particles to within a minute fraction of the speed of light, and yet each incremental piece of energy put in to making them go faster never pushes them as fast as the speed of light. The amount of energy input, and the speeds attained directly affirm the special theory of relativity. In every single collision which has ever been measured of which there are literally millions.

Stop expropriating legitimate science as if it somehow backs you up farsight. Go submit what you just posted to any decent physics journal and let me know their reply to you. Fraud.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by RuleBritannia » Sun May 30, 2010 2:20 pm

Hey it's some more crap from Farsight.
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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by ChildInAZoo » Sun May 30, 2010 2:22 pm

Well, the obvious reply that I can see is that there is no explanation of "what mass is" that is consistent with this explanation. Farsight has been really silent about answering questions about that subject. This must mean he actually understands that he is wrong there!

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Farsight » Sun May 30, 2010 2:23 pm

Twiglet: Surreal! I'm an advocate of special relativity. I've just told you why it would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a massive particle to the speed of light, and given you the supporting evidence that explains why the mathematics works. And you totally ignore it, imply I that I doubt the experimental evidence, and call me names? You're amazing, Twiggy. Your mathematical faith and your dismissal of any scientific evidence that runs counter to your dogmatic conviction fair takes my breath away. You are a salient reminder of exactly why there's Trouble with Physics. It really is like the shutters are down and there's nobody home.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Twiglet » Sun May 30, 2010 2:28 pm

Farsight wrote:Twiglet: Surreal! I'm an advocate of special relativity. I've just told you why it would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a massive particle to the speed of light, and given you the supporting evidence that explains why the mathematics works. And you totally ignore it, imply I that I doubt the experimental evidence, and call me names? You're amazing, Twiggy. Your mathematical faith and your dismissal of any scientific evidence that runs counter to your dogmatic conviction fair takes my breath away. You are a salient reminder of exactly why there's Trouble with Physics. It really is like the shutters are down and there's nobody home.
You seem to think you are in the "mentoring" role here. Absolutely laughable. I wouldn't need to brag about a degree to own your level of physics understanding farsight. I wouldn't even need to brag an O level. The only difference having a degree lends me in conversing with you, is the confidence to call your very obviously flawed conceptual understanding what it is, rather than deferring to your appeals to authority.

Your science isn't deep farsight. It's not even shallow.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Farsight » Sun May 30, 2010 2:33 pm

ChildInAZoo wrote:Well, the obvious reply that I can see is that there is no explanation of "what mass is" that is consistent with this explanation..
LOL! Apart from an entire thread entitled Mass Explained, which I linked to in the OP.
ChildInAZoo wrote:Farsight has been really silent about answering questions about that subject. This must mean he actually understands that he is wrong.
No I haven't, and no it doesn't. You'll have to do better than that. Try to form a counter-argument referring to counter-evidence. If you can't, well, all your ad-hominem sniping does you no credit.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Twiglet » Sun May 30, 2010 2:40 pm

You haven't defined anything farsight, you have made appeals to people to agree with your linguistic arguments by wiki-mining bits of information which have nothing whatsoever to do with the points you argue.

What you have demonstrated is an unwillingness or inability (and I think I know which) to solve problems you deride as being "for schoolboys", followed by a little bit of middle-school number crunching to demonstrate a conceptual point which still, even now escapes you.

So, as far as I am concerned you have demonstrated 3 things: Conceptual ineptitude, mathematical ineptitude, and a tendency to appeal to the idea that you have a much greater level of knowledge than the evidence suggests you possess.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by newolder » Sun May 30, 2010 2:44 pm

RuleBritannia wrote:Hey it's some more crap from Farsight.
Is it anything to do with science? :pop: :read: :coffeespray:
“This data is not Monte Carlo.”, …, “This collision is not a simulation.” - LHC-b guy, 30th March 2010.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Twiglet » Sun May 30, 2010 2:46 pm

newolder wrote:
RuleBritannia wrote:Hey it's some more crap from Farsight.
Is it anything to do with science? :pop: :read: :coffeespray:
I will wager a small slice of cheese and a blueberry that it is "about science", yet not to do with it.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by newolder » Sun May 30, 2010 2:47 pm

Twiglet wrote:
newolder wrote:
RuleBritannia wrote:Hey it's some more crap from Farsight.
Is it anything to do with science? :pop: :read: :coffeespray:
I will wager a small slice of cheese and a blueberry that it is "about science", yet not to do with it.
I'll wager you'll win. :cheers:
“This data is not Monte Carlo.”, …, “This collision is not a simulation.” - LHC-b guy, 30th March 2010.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Farsight » Sun May 30, 2010 2:51 pm

Twiglet wrote:You seem to think you are in the "mentoring" role here. Absolutely laughable. I wouldn't need to brag about a degree to own your level of physics understanding farsight. I wouldn't even need to brag an O level. The only difference having a degree lends me in conversing with you, is the confidence to call your very obviously flawed conceptual understanding what it is, rather than deferring to your appeals to authority. Your science isn't deep farsight. It's not even shallow.
Oh it's deep, Twiglet. And you can't fault it, all you can do is squeal. You posed the challenge, that's why I started the Understanding Electromagnetism thread remember? Then you posed another challenge regarding c is the limit, which I've also risen to. And despite all that, your response hasn't been a carefully-constructed counterargument. You've addressed none of the scientific evidence. You haven't challenged my simple logic. All we see from you is dismissal and denial and outrage. LOL! You remind me of how a witch doctor would behave when a pharmacologist turns up.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Twiglet » Sun May 30, 2010 2:58 pm

Farsight wrote:Oh it's deep, Twiglet. And you can't fault it, all you can do is squeal. You posed the challenge, that's why I started the Understanding Electromagnetism thread remember? Then you posed another challenge regarding c is the limit, which I've also risen to. And despite all that, your response hasn't been a carefully-constructed counterargument. You've addressed none of the scientific evidence. You haven't challenged my simple logic. All we see from you is dismissal and denial and outrage. LOL! You remind me of how a witch doctor would behave when a pharmacologist turns up.
It's not a you vs me argument any more farsight.

It's you vs schoolboy maths problems. A hurdle you seem to be finding it hard to jump over.

Your linguistic techniques for dismissing the arguments others pose are quite polished, but you seem to need a posting holiday when someone asks you to solve a "schoolboy" level problem, let alone explain what the results mean.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by ChildInAZoo » Sun May 30, 2010 4:15 pm

Farsight wrote:
ChildInAZoo wrote:Well, the obvious reply that I can see is that there is no explanation of "what mass is" that is consistent with this explanation..
LOL! Apart from an entire thread entitled Mass Explained, which I linked to in the OP.
ChildInAZoo wrote:Farsight has been really silent about answering questions about that subject. This must mean he actually understands that he is wrong.
No I haven't, and no it doesn't. You'll have to do better than that. Try to form a counter-argument referring to counter-evidence. If you can't, well, all your ad-hominem sniping does you no credit.
I asked you to explain what it means for a photon to be at rest. Your argument seems to rely on an example in which a photon is at rest. You refused to explain this. You can scream and wail like a child all you wish, but this doesn't change the fact that you are the person offering Papal statements that you refuse to back up with anything other than your own religious fiat.

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Re: Why c is the limit

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sun May 30, 2010 11:44 pm

Farsight,

Your theory of mass as 'trapped light' has been repeated in numerous threads now. I won't deny that it has a certain appeal to someone that is relatively ( :hehe: ) inexperienced in particle physics. You claim that the energy of a photon is 'trapped' in the body of an electron/positron pair and that it is this spinning energy that causes mass - all well and good (and please correct me if my simplification of your theory is in error) - now here's my question.

What about the other elementary particles? Quarks, leptons and their anti-particles? Are they too made up of trapped light? And if so, how do you explain their different weights, spins, charges, etc. as part of your theory? And what of the other bosons, the strong and weak forces, gravity? Can these become trapped too? And how does your theory explain the differences in spin between bosons and fermions?

You seem to have concentrated on one particularly familiar set of particles (photons/electrons) which are (relatively) well understood in your essays - I would be interested to see how you explain all of the others. :tea:
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