Unsurprisingly, Sexism Lives - Women On US Submarines

[BrettA]

I hadn't realised that comments were closed after only a week in the link below or I'd have posted a summary there, but I found the initial article incredibly biased so I'm glad I got to post something. That questions were seldom addressed isn't all that surprising to me given the slant of the initial article, but it seems to show these submariners as being aware of the ridiculous and indefensible nature of their 'arguments'.

http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/may/2 ... practical/

For those unaware of the background, the US has now allowed women to serve on submarines (or "boats"), but the ex-submariner community is often still voicing opposition. Norway lead the way in this regard in 1995, followed by soon afterward by Australia. It's still only a hand-full of nations doing this though, IIRC.

[maiforpeace]

Sexism lives, and not just on submarines.

A disappointing story Brett.

Sadly, my last night in York my cousin's husband got rather drunk and said some awful things about women in the workplace. I was shocked that such a young man was that sexist, and it took everything in my power not to smack him and put him in his place, but I resisted because I like my cousin so much. It makes sense to me now that he had to go all the way to Vietnam to find a spouse, because no British woman would be willing to put up with that crap.

My cousin nudged me several times on occasions when I rebuffed his ignorant comments about women, grateful that I spoke up on behalf of women, and feeling powerless because her command of English is so poor.

I am resolved to teach her English properly and help her gain her British citizenship.

[devogue]

I notice that the ex-commander says the submarine environment is unique, without going in to detail.

If his concern is mixing male and female crew members in such an environment, it would be interesting to hear what his views would be on an all female submarine crew.

[Deep Sea Isopod]

I notice that the ex-commander says the submarine environment is unique, without going in to detail.

If his concern is mixing male and female crew members in such an environment, it would be interesting to hear what his views would be on an all female submarine crew.

I'm all for that as long as I'm the commander.

[Feck]

I notice that the ex-commander says the submarine environment is unique, without going in to detail.

If his concern is mixing male and female crew members in such an environment, it would be interesting to hear what his views would be on an all female submarine crew.

I'm all for that as long as I'm the commander.

You would last 3 days until they put you in a torpedo tube and fired you !

[Deep Sea Isopod]

I notice that the ex-commander says the submarine environment is unique, without going in to detail.

If his concern is mixing male and female crew members in such an environment, it would be interesting to hear what his views would be on an all female submarine crew.

I'm all for that as long as I'm the commander.

You would last 3 days until they put you in a torpedo tube and fired you !

I'd much rather be tied up.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

To be honest, there are always going to be the potential for social problems when you put men and women into a confined space for a long period of time, in addition to the potential dangers of having any group of people in a confined space. I'm not saying that women shouldn't be allowed to serve on submarines out of hand but you would at least have to investigate the consequences first.


I'd also like to add that a lot of people I know of my age are pretty sexist but it's not to do with an actual belief that women can't do this or that. It's generally accepted that women can do most jobs as well as men and it would still be an accepted fact even if it wasn't emphasised, because it's largely part of the environment in which I and my generation have been brought up. However, getting older and more aware, the message is still shoved down our throats despite the fact that we accept it; in a business course in my school, we were asked to choose from a group of fictional people who we would want to organise a school prom and I was pulled up for picking five boys and one girl - by the only woman assisting on the course. I didn't pick the guys because they were guys but because they were better at doing what I would have wanted done: I chose on ability not on sex, yet I was still told to make the split 50:50. That's nonsense and it's also the reason why some well-educated young men are so sexist, we can often feel like women are the ones being favoured because we're constantly told that the girl is just as good at something as us even if she isn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a man of equal ability to a woman should be favoured but women shouldn't be favoured just to balance it out. I don't see any complaints when a large number of women are picked over men, in fact it's often extolled as a sign of progress because the women have been chosen on ability; so why do we get told not to pick large numbers of men, based on ability?

This isn't justification but an explanation that a lot of sexism in younger men is a backlash; not to say that old-fashioned sexism isn't still rife.

[Tigger]

To be honest, there are always going to be the potential for social problems when you put men and women into a confined space for a long period of time, in addition to the potential dangers of having any group of people in a confined space. I'm not saying that women shouldn't be allowed to serve on submarines out of hand but you would at least have to investigate the consequences first.


I'd also like to add that a lot of people I know of my age are pretty sexist but it's not to do with an actual belief that women can't do this or that. It's generally accepted that women can do most jobs as well as men and it would still be an accepted fact even if it wasn't emphasised, because it's largely part of the environment in which I and my generation have been brought up. However, getting older and more aware, the message is still shoved down our throats despite the fact that we accept it; in a business course in my school, we were asked to choose from a group of fictional people who we would want to organise a school prom and I was pulled up for picking five boys and one girl - by the only woman assisting on the course. I didn't pick the guys because they were guys but because they were better at doing what I would have wanted done: I chose on ability not on sex, yet I was still told to make the split 50:50. That's nonsense and it's also the reason why some well-educated young men are so sexist, we can often feel like women are the ones being favoured because we're constantly told that the girl is just as good at something as us even if she isn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a man of equal ability to a woman should be favoured but women shouldn't be favoured just to balance it out. I don't see any complaints when a large number of women are picked over men, in fact it's often extolled as a sign of progress because the women have been chosen on ability; so why do we get told not to pick large numbers of men, based on ability?

This isn't justification but an explanation that a lot of sexism in younger men is a backlash; not to say that old-fashioned sexism isn't still rife.

I can see where you're going with that. Forcing choices to make it balance isn't the right thing to do, but I imagine some people will be ready to pounce on that attitude. It's the same with employing minority groups. I tried (and failed) a few years ago to join the police, and I became aware that one was more likely to be selected for the initial assessment if one's name was not something like Jones, if you know what I mean. Now I'll be getting called a racist, and I'm absolutely not.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

I can see your point.

The argument should really be, "Choose based on ability" not "Don't show preference to so-and-so" because that line of thought, that you shouldn't show preference to one side, automatically leads to preference being shown for the other side in an attempt to avoid being preferential (if that makes sense?)

Just to clarify, I don't support men being sexist and I'm not a sexist myself but I just think that we have to stop making decisions based on identities and more on the person themselves.

[Tigger]

I can see your point.

The argument should really be, "Choose based on ability" not "Don't show preference to so-and-so" because that line of thought, that you shouldn't show preference to one side, automatically leads to preference being shown for the other side in an attempt to avoid being preferential (if that makes sense?)

Just to clarify, I don't support men being sexist and I'm not a sexist myself but I just think that we have to stop making decisions based on identities and more on the person themselves.

Just to clarify too, I'm 100% with you on that! Can't protest too much about not being racist/sexist/istist, whatever.

[tattuchu]

Sexism lives, and not just on submarines.

A disappointing story Brett.

Sadly, my last night in York my cousin's husband got rather drunk and said some awful things about women in the workplace. I was shocked that such a young man was that sexist, and it took everything in my power not to smack him and put him in his place, but I resisted because I like my cousin so much. It makes sense to me now that he had to go all the way to Vietnam to find a spouse, because no British woman would be willing to put up with that crap.

My cousin nudged me several times on occasions when I rebuffed his ignorant comments about women, grateful that I spoke up on behalf of women, and feeling powerless because her command of English is so poor.

I am resolved to teach her English properly and help her gain her British citizenship.

The fuck?
What kinda shit was he talking
Gender has nothing to do with competence. if anything, being female is a plus (the ego generally doesn't get in the way). The best supervisor at our plant by a very wide margin is female. By god, I wish she could clone herself. She's awesome, and an absolute pleasure to deal with.
Who in this day and age could have such a misogynistic attitude?

Mods, beak away if too far off-topic.

[ficklefiend]

I might just play devil avocado at this point and say that perhaps males might favour more male-oriented traits in people working for them. It would then follow in life that since most managers are men....

If this inverse sexism you talk of is society trying to break a cycle by forcing the balance, then perhaps that isn't quite so bad? (ditto other examples of biased hiring)


(Not saying this is 100% correct before I get a smackdown. Trying to open debate please, not hate.)

[Ian]

The Old School cranks said the same thing about women coming onto surface ships in the early 90s. I wasn't around for that era; I served on ships from 2000-2005 and women were very well integrated by then. So screw the Old School - I say let women serve on subs.

There's the argument that submarines mean tighter spaces, but I would argue that any submariner griping about letting women onboard because of that reason has never done a deployment onboard an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. Those aren't exactly roomy inside, take my word for it.

As for women becoming Navy SEALs... with all due respect to Demi Moore, I'm pretty skeptical about that ever happening.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

I might just play devil avocado at this point and say that perhaps males might favour more male-oriented traits in people working for them. It would then follow in life that since most managers are men....

If this inverse sexism you talk of is society trying to break a cycle by forcing the balance, then perhaps that isn't quite so bad? (ditto other examples of biased hiring)


(Not saying this is 100% correct before I get a smackdown. Trying to open debate please, not hate.)

I can see your point but when gender equality is becoming a more readily accepted thing for young men, it's harmful to force them to show preferential treatment to women just to strike a balance. In fact, it's hypocritical and that generates anger.

[ficklefiend]

As for women becoming Navy SEALs... with all due respect to Demi Moore, I'm pretty skeptical about that ever happening.

Equal but different is surely the cry to be heard. There is nothing wrong with hiring to the strengths of the sexes, physical performance being probably the simplest to measure.