Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri May 21, 2010 8:10 pm

Psychoserenity wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:

That's a pile of bullshit if I ever heard one.

Nothing bad has happened? Talk about the record numbers of people in mortgage default. Talk about the record number of people who have lost their homes to foreclosure. Talk about the 9.9% unemployment rate in the US and the 10.6% in Ireland and the 17% in Spain....the 8.8% in France...and the 8.3% (and rising) unemployment rate in the European Union overall.

Talk about the record losses in people's U.S. 401k Plans and IRA's (or equivalent retirement savings accounts in other countries). People lost 30%, 40% and 50% - and more - of their savings due to the stock plunges. Talk about the people who have had to take record numbers of loans and early withdrawals from those plans, and suffer penalties.

Nothing real has happened? It's all just paper bets between big bankers? What a load of ignorant shit that was.
I'd disagree with you here. I mean, clearly, the system is fucked - but the people who have been kicked out of their homes - the houses are still standing, so there's no real reason why they shouldn't live in them.
Except that the banks sell them and then other people live in them. They generally don't sit their empty.
Psychoserenity wrote:
Unemployment is only a problem because the system we currently have, requires people to be employed to be able to survive - but the majority of work is now automated, done with machines (or unfortunately, by exploited third world people). The whole point of technology is to make things easier - why don't we accept that and get everyone working two days a week?
That doesn't mean that nothing has really gone wrong.
Psychoserenity wrote:
Nothing bad has physically happened (apart from as consequences of this mess), it's just an unstable out-dated system is shaking itself to pieces, while the farm land and factories are more efficient than ever.
Well, feel free to propose a system that works.

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri May 21, 2010 8:15 pm

Ian wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote: The bill that just passed the Senate can't possibly be construed as fixing anything? :think:
If eliminating jobs, driving capital out of the United States, and increasing credit card costs is your idea of "fixing" things, then yes.

Note - the bill doesn't address the mortgage lender issues that were a big part of what caused the financial mess in the first place, and the Democrats blocked any reform of FannieMae and FreddieMac which were a big reason why subprime and high risk mortgage lending got out of control.

The bill increases banks’ costs by restricting the ability of banks to enter into contracts charging retailers for the convenience of using credit or debit cards to collect payment from customers. When Australia did this credit card holders suffered, as banks passed on the increased costs to them by hiking annual fees and getting rid of cash-back, rebate, and rewards programs. Ironically, recent interest rate hikes are partly the product of a law recently passed by Congress, the CARD Act, which forces responsible people to bear the costs of irresponsible borrowers.

The bill would also give government officials the ability to nationalize businesses that they "claim" are at risk of failing — and block meaningful judicial review of such seizures by shareholders.
Ah, so there isn't much good about the bill. Even though four Republicans broke ranks to sign it.
I didn't blame a particular party. The bill is not a good one, regardless of who voted for it.
Ian wrote:
And moreover, the Chamber of Commerce's criticism was that the bill didn't go far enough in regulating banks and trading.
That is part of it. The Chamber of Commerce also specifically stated that it would drive capital from the United States. I believe the director of the national Chamber of Commerce said "If you want a bill that will drive capital out of the United States, this is it."
Ian wrote:
I expected them to say the exact opposite, that it was anti-business, etc. Nope, they're whining that it won't do enough. Go figure. :dono:
They're whining that it will drive capital from the united states, and that it did nothing to regulate the mortgage lenders or repair the broken FannieMae and FreddieMac entities which were at the heart of the breakdown. Go figure.
Ian wrote:
You say the bill doesn't address mortgage lender issues. Wouldn't that responsibility fall to the new consumer protection agency?
Only if the law provided for that, which it doesn't. Agencies are only empowered to act within the limits provided by their implementing legislation that delegates to the agencies their powers.
Ian wrote:
Why should the bill be so specific and redundant about overseeing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?
Redundant? No. It should reform them. It doesn't.

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Ian » Fri May 21, 2010 8:27 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
You say the bill doesn't address mortgage lender issues. Wouldn't that responsibility fall to the new consumer protection agency?
Only if the law provided for that, which it doesn't. Agencies are only empowered to act within the limits provided by their implementing legislation that delegates to the agencies their powers.
It will be specifically empowered to watchdog certain lending practices such as mortgage lending, particularly to first-time homebuyers.
(Besides, it doesn't do anything yet - it still has to be reconciled with the House bill, which is quite a bit tougher)
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
Why should the bill be so specific and redundant about overseeing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?
Redundant? No. It should reform them. It doesn't.
And I'll bet if it was so specific as to reform those two agencies you'd gripe about the Federal government overstepping its bounds and meddling in business to the detriment of the economy. That's what the rest of your criticisms seem to be about.

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Robert_S » Fri May 21, 2010 9:14 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:

That's a pile of bullshit if I ever heard one.

Nothing bad has happened? Talk about the record numbers of people in mortgage default. Talk about the record number of people who have lost their homes to foreclosure. Talk about the 9.9% unemployment rate in the US and the 10.6% in Ireland and the 17% in Spain....the 8.8% in France...and the 8.3% (and rising) unemployment rate in the European Union overall.

Talk about the record losses in people's U.S. 401k Plans and IRA's (or equivalent retirement savings accounts in other countries). People lost 30%, 40% and 50% - and more - of their savings due to the stock plunges. Talk about the people who have had to take record numbers of loans and early withdrawals from those plans, and suffer penalties.

Nothing real has happened? It's all just paper bets between big bankers? What a load of ignorant shit that was.
I took from it that nothing happened from outside the world of finance to cause the crash. The crash resulted in large part from people going crazy thinking that they had a non-popping bubble in the housing market.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri May 21, 2010 9:36 pm

Ian wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
You say the bill doesn't address mortgage lender issues. Wouldn't that responsibility fall to the new consumer protection agency?
Only if the law provided for that, which it doesn't. Agencies are only empowered to act within the limits provided by their implementing legislation that delegates to the agencies their powers.
It will be specifically empowered to watchdog certain lending practices such as mortgage lending, particularly to first-time homebuyers.
(Besides, it doesn't do anything yet - it still has to be reconciled with the House bill, which is quite a bit tougher)
There must be a law creating an agency, and that law species the policy that the agency will have to enforce. The only thing the agency does is make regulations which are designed to set forth how the agency interprets the law and what the agency will do to enforce the law. If the law does not give the agency a policy to enforce and delineate what it's supposed to do, then the agency will not be able to do anything. The consumer protection agency is not going to be the emperor of the banks and lenders.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Ian wrote:
Why should the bill be so specific and redundant about overseeing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac?
Redundant? No. It should reform them. It doesn't.
And I'll bet if it was so specific as to reform those two agencies you'd gripe about the Federal government overstepping its bounds and meddling in business to the detriment of the economy. That's what the rest of your criticisms seem to be about.[/quote]

No, I wouldn't. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are creatures of statute. They only exist because they were created by a government scheme of regulation. Why would I object to meddling with what the government was already meddling in?

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by laklak » Sun May 23, 2010 11:23 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:The Euro is finished. The continent will be forced to adopt sterling.
Only if they voluntarily accept British sovereignty and give up eating snails. And horse meat. I won't tolerate Pound Sterling spent on bloody Frog food. First it's snails, then horse meat, before you know it there's damn cabbage on your plate. I simply won't have it, I tell you.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Trolldor » Mon May 24, 2010 2:42 am

Pastries are quite nice.
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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Rum » Mon May 24, 2010 7:13 am

I hope people are preparing themselves for our new government's announcements today. I suspect we are in for something of a shock.

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon May 24, 2010 12:00 pm

And, the train keeps a rollin'....

France set to raise the retirement age: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/751a63d4-66a5 ... ab49a.html

Fiscal crisis threatens Europe's generous benefits: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100523/D9FSPCAO1.html

European problems could set off global chain reaction: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04170.html

Euro continues to slide: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid= ... d=20601087

British Airways - record annual loss: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100521/bs ... lzaGFpcndh

Britain cutting wasteful spending to reduce deficit: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100524/wl ... 51bnZlaQ-- (immediately criticized by labor unions - shock!)

Canada may raise interest rates: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100521/wl_ ... RlaGlrZQ--

European Stocks Weaken Again: http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 ... inesEurope

Euro-Zone Debt Fears Hit Futures Market: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... NewsSecond

Welsh Budget to Drop Due to Spending Cuts: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wale ... 142092.stm

How to approach Europe's new prospects of misery.... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/world ... ticus.html

Japan's Nikkei weakens.... http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 ... theadlines

:cry:

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon May 24, 2010 2:41 pm

"The crisis is not over; we are just at the next stage. This is where we move from a private to a public debt problem," he says, his speech the mongrel drawl of a man who was born in Turkey to Iranian parents, raised in Israel and Italy and lives in New York. "We socialised part of the private losses by bailing out financial institutions and providing fiscal stimulus to avoid the great recession from turning into a depression. But rising public debt is never a free lunch, eventually you have to pay for it."
As eurozone leaders panic and markets continue to dive, Roubini believes Greece will prove to be just the first of a series of countries standing on the brink.
"We have to start to worry about the solvency of governments. What is happening today in Greece is the tip of the iceberg of rising sovereign debt problems in the eurozone, in the UK, in Japan and in the US. This... is going to be the next issue in the global financial crisis."
It already is. And Roubini claims to have foreseen it as far back as 2006.
"I was writing about the PIGS [Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain] six to nine months before everyone else, I was worried about the future of the monetary union back in 2006," he says. "At the World Economic Forum I outraged a policy official by suggesting the monetary union might break up."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... -next.html

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue May 25, 2010 1:05 pm

Private wages in the US are at an all time low, while government pay soars: http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/i ... ctor_N.htm

US Stock Futures Take A Nosedive before the bell: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... MeApbqPeTU

World Stocks Plummet on European Fears: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100525/D9FTON500.html

Gold continues to rise in price - selling faster than the metal can be mined: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... f.XxAJB0Rc

Financial Reform Bill in the US "a disaster" because it does not address real estate and underwriting which were underlying causes: http://www.cnbc.com/id/37314297

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue May 25, 2010 2:14 pm

Dow Jones Industrial Average plunges 200 points in first 2 minutes -- under 10,000 --- http://www.cnbc.com/id/37333676

All 30 Dow stocks negative
Banking stocks take a big hit
Volatility index up over 40
All components of NASDAQ 100 were down
Only a small handful of S&P 500 stocks trading positive
Credit markets stiffening, with the bank Libor rate going up (rate banks charge each other)
Commodity prices broadly lower

Housing prices down in March, again http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100525/ap_ ... JpY2VzZHI-

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue May 25, 2010 6:39 pm

Tax credits and historically low mortgage rates have failed to lift home prices so far this year. Prices fell 0.5 percent in March from February, according to the Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller 20-city index released Tuesday .
The co-creator of the Case-Shiller index, who predicted in 2005 that the housing bubble would burst, is raising concerns that the worst may be ahead. That fear is shared by other economists who point to weak job growth, tight credit and many more foreclosures ahead.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100525/ap_ ... 5naG9tZXA-

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed May 26, 2010 11:17 am

Moody’s Reiterates U.S. Spending Risks Credit Rating (Update1) http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... 1YD_O3PXz4 The U.S. government’s Aaa bond rating will come under pressure in the future unless additional measures are taken to reduce projected record budget deficits, according to Moody’s Investors Service Inc.

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Re: Here comes the other economic shoe dropping...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed May 26, 2010 11:21 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Martok wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote: The world won't go away. The worst that will happen is we'll have less money to spend on toys. And that's not a bad thing, IMNSHO.
It's going to be a bitter pill for many people to swallow. For eight years we had a president that said it was ok to spend like crazy. Never mind we were fighting two costly wars. :think:
Yes, that's true. Bush never vetoed a spending Bill, and it caused a major problem. President Bush set a number of records in deficit spending: No Child Left Behind; 15 billion for AIDS relief in Africa (most ever spent to fight AIDS); federally funded embryonic stem cell research; and created (up until Obama's health care plan) the single biggest entitlement program in American history, the Medicare Prescription Bill. Bush pushed for and authorized Congress to spend like a drunken sailor.

Now, however, just when we thought it couldn't get worse, we have a President that is making Bush look like he was running the country on a shoestring budget. We'll probably break $1.55 trillion for the deficit this year. By the 2012 election it will probably be $16 trillion dollars in total national debt.

Here it is today:

Image

And, it is going up at record pace of about $6 billion a day.

Oops! Don't blink! It's $13 Trillion! http://www.usdebtclock.org/

http://www.usdebtclock.org/sources/transparent2.gif

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