arguments against "moderates" and compartmentalization

[NeezyDeezy]

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[FBM]

First of all, welcome to Ratz!

Wrt atheist activism, I think the individual's decision to participate or not has a lot to do with mundane factors as much as ideological ones. Activism of any flavor takes time and other resources that may not be available to every atheist at all times. Some of us are raising families, have career/employment issues, etc., that are more pressing atm than spreading the enlightenment. People drop into and out of activism as their circumstances allow, generally.

That said, the day the last religon vanishes from the Earth can't come too soon, IMO.

[Rum]

Hi and welcome! Personally I don't care too much what fantasy beings people want to believe in so long as they don't try to interfere with my life as a result of their beliefs. Unfortunately this does happen, though in some ways perhaps not as commonly in the UK as in the USA.

I am a member of a secular society here in the UK. It isn't hugely activist. It has a regular speaker and a meeting every couple of months. We sign up to petitions, challenge things which appear to evidence religion trespassing where it should not and that's about it.

In my prsonal life I only challenge individuals who spout bullshit in an offensive way about religion. Their private beliefs are - well - private, as long as they don't interfere with me.

Much of Europe is untroubled by loony religious types, so we are lucky and have a bit of a head start. Atheism is almost the norm in quite a few countries and certainly does not cause outrage.

[Feck]

Being an atheist is so passé all the cool kids will be Bahá'i next year , I'm taking up Shinto myself because ,who wants to follow fashion when you can set it.

[NeezyDeezy]

I'm not looking to convince people to take up the call themselves, necessarily, but rather make a defense of the people who choose to do so, myself included.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Welcome to Ratz, Neezy.

Activism is all well and good if you are young, free and of independent means. Try being active when you have a family, a mortgage and a job. In some cases, merely standing up and being counted as an atheist can be enough to jeapordise one or more of those things - especially if you live in Saudi Arabia, or a small town in the bible-belt.

I agree that a higher profile for secularism is needed. Politicians, business people and educators shouldn't feel that they have to kowtow to the demands of religion and knowledge of a large, vocal, secular minority can go a way towards that. But organising something as nebulous as atheism is a non-starter. People do what they can - or don't. Getting two atheists to agree to differ on how many sugars to have in a cup of tea is a major achievement!

[Bruce Burleson]

I live in the U.S. and I'm new to the forum. This seems like a great place for good discussion. Specifically, I'm looking for some help in making more convincing arguments for atheist activism with other atheists. These are people who are already sold on why faith is wrong, but do not agree with the need for activism. In fact, I often find that most people look down on any kind of "activism" or "organization" on the part of atheists, because it is about trying to tell other people how to live their lives - a similarity that takes the ugly form of proselytizing in the religious context. They often also argue that most religious people have moderate beliefs that do not inform their everyday behavior, and that we should merely "live and let live," rather than try to change believers' minds. In these conversations, I find that the other person often agrees that organized Christian churches are extremely detrimental, but take a much more relativistic stance towards religion writ large. I often find that people believe that ignorance, including religious belief, is best challenged not by direct frontal assault, but through overall societal development, increasing standards of life and security, and above all good education.

Hi. I'm one of those moderate believers and a fellow U.S. citizen. Atheism vs. Theism is like Democrat v. Republican, Cowboys v. Redskins, "less filling" v. "tastes great." People make their choices and go with them. The market may shift back and forth, but nobody's ever going to have a total monopoly. There will always be atheists and there will always be theists. Always have been, always will be. I wouldn't get all worked up about it.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I live in the U.S. and I'm new to the forum. This seems like a great place for good discussion. Specifically, I'm looking for some help in making more convincing arguments for atheist activism with other atheists. These are people who are already sold on why faith is wrong, but do not agree with the need for activism. In fact, I often find that most people look down on any kind of "activism" or "organization" on the part of atheists, because it is about trying to tell other people how to live their lives - a similarity that takes the ugly form of proselytizing in the religious context. They often also argue that most religious people have moderate beliefs that do not inform their everyday behavior, and that we should merely "live and let live," rather than try to change believers' minds. In these conversations, I find that the other person often agrees that organized Christian churches are extremely detrimental, but take a much more relativistic stance towards religion writ large. I often find that people believe that ignorance, including religious belief, is best challenged not by direct frontal assault, but through overall societal development, increasing standards of life and security, and above all good education.

Hi. I'm one of those moderate believers and a fellow U.S. citizen. Atheism vs. Theism is like Democrat v. Republican, Cowboys v. Redskins, "less filling" v. "tastes great." People make their choices and go with them. The market may shift back and forth, but nobody's ever going to have a total monopoly. There will always be atheists and there will always be theists. Always have been, always will be. I wouldn't get all worked up about it.

Except atheists used to be a tiny, secretive, persecuted minority. Now they are out in the open and getting louder all the time.

500 years ago, I would have been burnt at the stake for professing atheism in public in Britain. 300 years ago, I might well have been imprisoned for the same act. 100 years ago, I would have been ostracised from many parts of society. 50 years ago, I would have raised eyebrows and been met with scorn and disapproving looks. Today it is no more remarkable than professing a dislike for cabbage. And church attendances drop year on year, while the average age of the congregation gets older and older. Here at least, the balance is shifting.

[Bruce Burleson]

Except atheists used to be a tiny, secretive, persecuted minority. Now they are out in the open and getting louder all the time.

500 years ago, I would have been burnt at the stake for professing atheism in public in Britain. 300 years ago, I might well have been imprisoned for the same act. 100 years ago, I would have been ostracised from many parts of society. 50 years ago, I would have raised eyebrows and been met with scorn and disapproving looks. Today it is no more remarkable than professing a dislike for cabbage. And church attendances drop year on year, while the average age of the congregation gets older and older. Here at least, the balance is shifting.

Yes, you are increasing your market share, as any novelty does. It's in vogue now, so it's on the rise. It will swing back and forth, and as it becomes old news, it will settle in at a particular percentage. The good thing is that it will be accepted as a part of society, so nobody will kill you for it.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Except atheists used to be a tiny, secretive, persecuted minority. Now they are out in the open and getting louder all the time.

500 years ago, I would have been burnt at the stake for professing atheism in public in Britain. 300 years ago, I might well have been imprisoned for the same act. 100 years ago, I would have been ostracised from many parts of society. 50 years ago, I would have raised eyebrows and been met with scorn and disapproving looks. Today it is no more remarkable than professing a dislike for cabbage. And church attendances drop year on year, while the average age of the congregation gets older and older. Here at least, the balance is shifting.

Yes, you are increasing your market share, as any novelty does. It's in vogue now, so it's on the rise. It will swing back and forth, and as it becomes old news, it will settle in at a particular percentage. The good thing is that it will be accepted as a part of society, so nobody will kill you for it.

Hopefully no-one will kill you for your outmoded belief system either.

But I wouldn't bet on it being around forever. Forever is a long time. The human race managed quite well without christianity for 99% of their 200,000 year existence. Like you said - a novelty.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Except atheists used to be a tiny, secretive, persecuted minority. Now they are out in the open and getting louder all the time.

500 years ago, I would have been burnt at the stake for professing atheism in public in Britain. 300 years ago, I might well have been imprisoned for the same act. 100 years ago, I would have been ostracised from many parts of society. 50 years ago, I would have raised eyebrows and been met with scorn and disapproving looks. Today it is no more remarkable than professing a dislike for cabbage. And church attendances drop year on year, while the average age of the congregation gets older and older. Here at least, the balance is shifting.

Yes, you are increasing your market share, as any novelty does. It's in vogue now, so it's on the rise. It will swing back and forth, and as it becomes old news, it will settle in at a particular percentage. The good thing is that it will be accepted as a part of society, so nobody will kill you for it.

Hopefully no-one will kill you for your outmoded belief system either.

But I wouldn't bet on it being around forever. Forever is a long time. The human race managed quite well without christianity for 99% of their 200,000 year existence. Like you said - a novelty.

[FBM]

I'm not looking to convince people to take up the call themselves, necessarily, but rather make a defense of the people who choose to do so, myself included.

Oh, by all means, do as you feel inclined. I'd never knock activism. The more the merrier, as long as the methods remain civil.

[Deep Sea Isopod]

500 years ago, I would have been burnt at the stake for professing atheism in public in Britain. 300 years ago, I might well have been imprisoned for the same act. 100 years ago, I would have been ostracised from many parts of society. 50 years ago, I would have raised eyebrows and been met with scorn and disapproving looks. Today it is no more remarkable than professing a dislike for cabbage.:

You dislike cabbage?

BURN HIM!!!!!!

The big Cauliflower (Peas be upon him) will send you non-cabbagists to the oven, where you will be roasted untill brown and crispy !

I'm going to the casserole dish in the sky.

[FBM]

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Rethinking the OP?