Evidence that Islam is an Ultraviolent Horror Show

[Coito ergo sum]

Islam sucks way worse because even in its "moderate" versions it is still horrid.

Can you back that up? I know some moderate Muslims and they are definitely no worse than the moderate Christians I know.

40% of British Muslims want Sha'ria law in Britain. Sha'ria law is hateful, brutal, discriminatory, misogynistic and homophobic.

40% of British Muslims want Sha'ria law in Britain: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/146

That reminds me that 70% of Britons want the death penalty.

Big deal. Sha'ria law is, as I noted hateful, brutal, discriminatory, misogynistic and homophobic, and in favor of the death penalty.

What about the 60% who presumably don't?

The point is that 40% of any population is not an insignificant, fringe or mere extreme wacko portion of the population. That is a giant chunk of the population and that's sufficient for it to be a major problem.

Plus, how do you know exactly what they are conceptualising when they say Sharia law? The whole system is much wider than just the bits we in the west regularly (and rightly) vilify.

I know of no version of Sha'ria law that is not discriminatory, misogynistic, homophobic, and anti-democratic. If there is one out there, though, I'm willing to be educated.

[Pappa]

I take you points Coito, I just think the decline of the honey bee , and a few metres rise in sea levels is a LOT more worrying than the Muslims .

There are lots of things to worry about. Even if honey bee decline and sea level rises are legitimate worries, that doesn't mean that the rise of violent Islam is a non-issue.

Islam is quite problematic in another sense: it is having an effect on Western values, including freedom of speech. That is the reason for the 5/20 draw muhammed day. The only reason it is necessary is because there is a significant movement within Islam to impose its proscription of drawing images of the Mighty Mo on the rest of the world. They aren't content in abiding by their own rules, a significant movement is afoot to make our knees bend to their despotic rules.

This is NOT an illusion. It is a direct threat to what the Western Liberal Enlightenment fought for over hundreds of years. Men and women died to fight from under monarchs who squelched liberty. From Magna Carta, to the English Bill of Rights, to the American and French Revolutions, our people fought and died for liberty. This monstrosity called Islam is presently a threat to that - we see DISCRIMINATORY self-censorship in our media and educational institutions - we see people being murdered for what they say about Islam, and we see many more being threatened for what they say about Islam.

We must stand against it. And, standing against the injustices of Islam takes nothing away from our ability to stand against honeybee decline and sea level rises.

Christianity was doing all this too, but it wasn't so blatantly obvious. I'm glad (in a way) that the irrationality of Islam's demands is easier to see, it also throws Christianity's similar demands into relief. I think, in the end, we'll end up with a situation where religious demands are massively downgraded because of it. You can see some changes in the right direction already here in the UK... though we also have a potential right-wing backlash with our new government.

[Feck]

I never said we should stand not against it !I also never said that Xian horrors negated muslim ones I was trying to make the point that if you look at the WORST any country or religion is capable of then you might get a warped view point .


Read the first line of my post " I think there is a little to much hysteria "

About the 40 % I bet if the question Had been asked "should adulterers be stoned " the figures would be a lot less , Asking a Muslim about Sharia law is like asking an Xian if the ten commandments should be law , most would say yes .

[Coito ergo sum]

I take you points Coito, I just think the decline of the honey bee , and a few metres rise in sea levels is a LOT more worrying than the Muslims .

There are lots of things to worry about. Even if honey bee decline and sea level rises are legitimate worries, that doesn't mean that the rise of violent Islam is a non-issue.

Islam is quite problematic in another sense: it is having an effect on Western values, including freedom of speech. That is the reason for the 5/20 draw muhammed day. The only reason it is necessary is because there is a significant movement within Islam to impose its proscription of drawing images of the Mighty Mo on the rest of the world. They aren't content in abiding by their own rules, a significant movement is afoot to make our knees bend to their despotic rules.

This is NOT an illusion. It is a direct threat to what the Western Liberal Enlightenment fought for over hundreds of years. Men and women died to fight from under monarchs who squelched liberty. From Magna Carta, to the English Bill of Rights, to the American and French Revolutions, our people fought and died for liberty. This monstrosity called Islam is presently a threat to that - we see DISCRIMINATORY self-censorship in our media and educational institutions - we see people being murdered for what they say about Islam, and we see many more being threatened for what they say about Islam.

We must stand against it. And, standing against the injustices of Islam takes nothing away from our ability to stand against honeybee decline and sea level rises.

Christianity was doing all this too, but it wasn't so blatantly obvious.

Of course, but the vast majority of Christians moderated and embraced the Englightenment. Movements within Christianity even helped foster the Enlightenment. The Protestant Reformation helped bring it on, and ultimately moderating influences like the Unitarians, Quakers and other truly peaceful sects, and the moderation, over time, of major denominations like Lutherans/Bretherens, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc., and the rise of Christian Humanism also worked to reduce the influence of radical and extremist Christian groups. We still do have them, but they are tiny in number and of very little influence, and they receive near ZERO support from the moderate Christians when they do fucked up shit.

That's the difference - Sam Harris puts it best when he says the moderate Muslims provide cover to the extremists. That's where the 40% figures in the UK for Muslims that want Sha'ria is so disturbing. Most of those 40% would not take violent action themselves, but their general support for the goal provides cover to the extremists that are willing to take action, and the secular authorities are loathe to "offend" the huge number of Muslims that, although perhaps not even part of the 40%, will rush to the defense of other Muslims qua Muslims.

I'm glad (in a way) that the irrationality of Islam's demands is easier to see, it also throws Christianity's similar demands into relief.

Anyone making similar demands should be likewise rejected. However, the number of Christians making such demands is miniscule compared to the Muslim movement in this regard.

[Coito ergo sum]

I never said we should stand not against it !I also never said that Xian horrors negated muslim ones I was trying to make the point that if you look at the WORST any country or religion is capable of then you might get a warped view point .

You're missing it, though. The problem is that you don't just have to look at the "worst" of Islam to get the loathesome, reprehensible and god-awful discrimination, homophobia and misogyny. It's the prevailing view in Islam, so much so that Sha'ria and Islamic law is entrenched throughout the Muslim world to a degree that it almost can't be imagined that it would be removed. They have no separation of church and state, and they have expanded Sha'ria/Islamic law throughout Northern Africa and Eastern Africa and it continues to spread. It's so much of a problem that 40% of UK Muslims want Sha'ria law there. 40% - that's not peanuts, and that's not just the "worst."

We need to acknowledge that this is not just "a few wackos on the far extreme." There are plenty, and they are supported by the moderate Muslims who give them cover and are not nearly so "moderate" as that word connotes.

Read the first line of my post " I think there is a little to much hysteria "

About the 40 % I bet if the question Had been asked "should adulterers be stoned " the figures would be a lot less ,

I'll believe it when I see it. I don't give them so little credit that they don't know what Sha'ria means.

Asking a Muslim about Sharia law is like asking an Xian if the ten commandments should be law , most would say yes .

I don't think most would say yes, and there is no significant movement within Christianity to legislate the 10 Commandments. The movements that do exist, like to post 10 Commandments in courthouses and stuff, are despicable and should be, and are, opposed and rightly so.

The difference is that you don't get massive demonstrations of Christians with signs saying "behead those who insult Jesus," and "Bring Biblical Law to the US!" and "UK you will pay! 7/7 on its way!" Tens of thousands - massive demonstrations - of Muslims do this stuff. And, we get lots of murders and threats of murders for people's exercise of free speech not from Christians, but from Muslims.

Let's view reality as it is. Yes, we all here oppose ALL religions. And, yes, Christianity was no better than Islam is now, in the past. But, now, we're talking about today - the most pernicious religious force is clearly Islam. It's not "inherently" more pernicious - as it could conceivably moderate as Christianity did in the Enlightenment. But, right now, it's a monstrosity, and too many Muslims are sucked into what we Enlightenment secularists would call "extreme" points of view.

[Pappa]

I'm glad (in a way) that the irrationality of Islam's demands is easier to see, it also throws Christianity's similar demands into relief.

Anyone making similar demands should be likewise rejected. However, the number of Christians making such demands is miniscule compared to the Muslim movement in this regard.

I don't agree with that. I think Christianity is just as demanding that it's beliefs are special and to be protected, it's just less noisy and violent about it. It's received wisdom here that it's somehow wrong to criticise religious beliefs and practices. As for moderates, fucking loads of moderate Christians believe homosexuality is unnatural and wrong. They are the ones who oppose(d) gay priests, the ordination of females etc.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm glad (in a way) that the irrationality of Islam's demands is easier to see, it also throws Christianity's similar demands into relief.

Anyone making similar demands should be likewise rejected. However, the number of Christians making such demands is miniscule compared to the Muslim movement in this regard.

I don't agree with that.

Facts are facts.

I think Christianity is just as demanding that it's beliefs are special and to be protected,

Just as demanding?

Where is the Christian demand for a Christian equivalent to Sha'ria?

Where is the Christian demand that apostates be murdered? Where is the demand that the South Park creators die for insulting the Virgin Mary? Where is the demand that we should behead those who insult Jesus?

Do television shows censor blasphemous images of Jesus? Of course not. And, why not? Because Christianity is NOT just as demanding as Islam.

In India a newspaper republished a British news article that stated, truthfully, that Mighty Mo married a 9 year old girl, and riots int he streets and calls for blood had the editors of the newspaper prosecuted and forced to apologize....for ...telling...the ....truth....

In Holland, Wilders is under assault, Van Gogh was murdered, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali was driven underground.

In Britain, 40% of Muslims want Sha'ria law there.

In the US and the UK Muslims are taking or attempting violent actions to get their demands met - many times over.

No sir, the "demands" are not comparable. Not even close.

Exhibit A - I can go on television with a blasphemous image of Yahweh or Jesus. If I have a blasphemous image of the Mighty Mo, though, I will be censored because of Islamic demands. If I dare show an image of Mighty Mo, or a supposed image of Mighty Mo in a bear costume which later turns out to be Santa Claus, I will have to hire personal bodyguards.

it's just less noisy and violent about it.

In other words, less demanding. Being less violent about one's demands is "less demanding."

It's received wisdom here that it's somehow wrong to criticise religious beliefs and practices.

That's common in the West these days, even among secularists, where you get a multiculturalist view that hurtful, offensive and hateful speech about a religion should be prohibited to protect the feelings of its adherents.

As for moderates, fucking loads of moderate Christians believe homosexuality is unnatural and wrong.

But, despite the Christians that believe that, the West, including the US, is becoming more and more accomodating, tolerant, and liberal on that issue. What 40 years ago was a crime and a mental illness, is now, in the vast majority of Christians views, a personal affair that is not to be legislated against. Homosexuals are gaining more and more rights in the West - 10 years ago, there was maybe one country in the world where gays could get married or civil unions, and a mere decade later there are quite a few, and the number is rising.

There is no similar trend in Muslim countries, where homosexuality is still a crime, and the moderate Muslims, to the tune of 40% want Sha'ria law in Britain, which makes homosexuality illegal. I'm sure many more that don't want Sha'ria still think, nevertheless, that homsexuality is "unnatural and wrong."

They are the ones who oppose(d) gay priests, the ordination of females etc.

Well, right. Christianity thinks homosexual sex is a sin. That's true, and we can all disagree with them, and their view is slowly being rejected by mainstream western societies. The difference with Islam, however, is that a significant proportion of the population speaks of beheadings and stonings of homosexuals, adulterers, rebellious children, disobedient and slutty daughters, etc.....and there are a significant number of occasions where people follow through on those things....