Immigration Question for Europeans.

[Beelzebub2]

I don't think anyone is crazy enough to come to live here (apart from children of the immigrants), so i don't think we have an immigration policy that is used (or abused). And even if such crazy people exist they are immediately taken to suitable institutions and questioned for sanity.

This should be under spoiler :

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

Migration Profile

[Chinaski]

With our current bilateral agreements, virtually anyone can enter Switzerland and live there. A requirement for acquiring citizenship is living and working here for 12 years. If they fail to meet the other requirements (history exam, questions about the political system) they're deported. But we're a small country, and no one gets in our out without the government knowing. However, you're more than welcome to move here, get a job, start a family. Political refugees are also taken care of. No one starves, no one's homeless. If you need help, we'll take care of you. Our own citizens will find a way to cope. The state provides, in any case.

Your country is a libertarian's worst nightmare.

Especially since it motherfucking works. Sure, we're full of old people afraid of change; the south's cultural scene is stifled by nationalistic arrogance; we have some stupid politicians.
But all in all? It fucking works.

Depends on your definition of 'works'. I believe for example that Switzerland has a very high rate of heroin addiction. A fact that still rather puzzles me.

Careful, the statistics might be skewed due to our heroin rehab program (or the program we used to have until last year). If it was counting the number of heroin users, it will have been unusually high, due to the drug centers where heroin addicts can stay for rehab and counseling. The curious thing is that while they're there they're provided with heroin and clean needles by the government.

My definition of "works", anyway, was based on the high standards of living, economical stability, and political efficiency.

[Coito ergo sum]

With our current bilateral agreements, virtually anyone can enter Switzerland and live there. A requirement for acquiring citizenship is living and working here for 12 years. If they fail to meet the other requirements (history exam, questions about the political system) they're deported. But we're a small country, and no one gets in our out without the government knowing. However, you're more than welcome to move here, get a job, start a family. Political refugees are also taken care of. No one starves, no one's homeless. If you need help, we'll take care of you. Our own citizens will find a way to cope. The state provides, in any case.

Really? "Virtually anyone?"

That's not what some quick research revealed. I found that Swiss law favors educated professionals and the rich, and even provides incentives for them to live and set up businesses in Switzerland, low skilled workers and refugees are highly restricted. If you don't have a job, you can visit Switzerland, but you can't jsut go there and stay.

Third-country nationals are subject to the provisions of the Federal Act on Foreign Nationals (FNA). Admission for non-EU nationals is restricted and residence permits are granted at the sole discretion of the authorities. Authorisation to reside in Switzerland can be granted if the regulations regarding foreign nationals and the labour market are complied with but normally there is not any automatic right. Residence can be authorised if it is for specific purposes (education/training, family reunification, retirement in Switzerland) provided certain conditions are complied with. The FOM can give further information on this.

http://www.ch.ch/private/00029/00030/00 ... ml?lang=en

There are qualifications that need to be met, and Switzerland does not just take anyone who wants to go to Switzerland and siphon off the Swiss benefit system.

In any case, the OP was about whether police officers are allowed to ask a foreigner for his ID card. Yes, Switzerland has a "foreigners ID card" and the police can ask you for it. They can stop a person, ask for the card, and check the ID number for validity. They don't need anything more than a "suspicion." In other words, in Switzerland, it's no different, at best, than under the Arizona law. You guys already have this rule. Cops can check the "foreigners ID card" basically whenever they want to. In fact, they don't need to have already stopped the person for another reason. They can just check your ID card.

[Coito ergo sum]

With our current bilateral agreements, virtually anyone can enter Switzerland and live there. A requirement for acquiring citizenship is living and working here for 12 years. If they fail to meet the other requirements (history exam, questions about the political system) they're deported. But we're a small country, and no one gets in our out without the government knowing. However, you're more than welcome to move here, get a job, start a family. Political refugees are also taken care of. No one starves, no one's homeless. If you need help, we'll take care of you. Our own citizens will find a way to cope. The state provides, in any case.

Your country is a libertarian's worst nightmare.

Who cares what is and is not a libertarian's worst nightmare?

But, in any case, Chinaski is incorrect, according to the material I found on the web relative to who can and can't move to Switzerland. Visiting is one thing - but staying? Those visas are restricted. Not everyone is welcome to move there, get a job (there are requirements to protect the job market in Switzerland).

[Chinaski]

With our current bilateral agreements, virtually anyone can enter Switzerland and live there. A requirement for acquiring citizenship is living and working here for 12 years. If they fail to meet the other requirements (history exam, questions about the political system) they're deported. But we're a small country, and no one gets in our out without the government knowing. However, you're more than welcome to move here, get a job, start a family. Political refugees are also taken care of. No one starves, no one's homeless. If you need help, we'll take care of you. Our own citizens will find a way to cope. The state provides, in any case.

Really? "Virtually anyone?"

That's not what some quick research revealed. I found that Swiss law favors educated professionals and the rich, and even provides incentives for them to live and set up businesses in Switzerland, low skilled workers and refugees are highly restricted. If you don't have a job, you can visit Switzerland, but you can't jsut go there and stay.

Third-country nationals are subject to the provisions of the Federal Act on Foreign Nationals (FNA). Admission for non-EU nationals is restricted and residence permits are granted at the sole discretion of the authorities. Authorisation to reside in Switzerland can be granted if the regulations regarding foreign nationals and the labour market are complied with but normally there is not any automatic right. Residence can be authorised if it is for specific purposes (education/training, family reunification, retirement in Switzerland) provided certain conditions are complied with. The FOM can give further information on this.

http://www.ch.ch/private/00029/00030/00 ... ml?lang=en

There are qualifications that need to be met, and Switzerland does not just take anyone who wants to go to Switzerland and siphon off the Swiss benefit system.

In any case, the OP was about whether police officers are allowed to ask a foreigner for his ID card. Yes, Switzerland has a "foreigners ID card" and the police can ask you for it. They can stop a person, ask for the card, and check the ID number for validity. They don't need anything more than a "suspicion." In other words, in Switzerland, it's no different, at best, than under the Arizona law. You guys already have this rule. Cops can check the "foreigners ID card" basically whenever they want to. In fact, they don't need to have already stopped the person for another reason. They can just check your ID card.

Sure it favors rich people. It doesn't exclude poor people, though. Furthermore, movement is not restricted, and if you apply for refugee status entry is practically guaranteed. Switzerland is very accommodating- the right wing parties make complaining about said accommodations their main selling point. Sure it says that entry depends on the discretion of the authorities- but their discretion is very, very generous.

[Coito ergo sum]

Sure it favors rich people. It doesn't exclude poor people, though. Furthermore, movement is not restricted,

Immigration is restricted. And, yes, according to the Swiss immigration website I read, poor people are generally excluded. If I have zero dollars or euros, except a plane ticket to Switzerland, I will not be permitted to immigrate to Switzerland.

and if you apply for refugee status entry is practically guaranteed.

Only if you qualify for refugee status, which is governed by international law and the "well founded fear of persecution" due to specified reasons, which is not at all easy to qualify for. It's just anyone who can apply for refugee status. You have to be a refugee, and you have to be fleeing from persecution, and that persecution has to be severe and that persecution has to be for specified reasons. That same rule applies to other countries as well, including the US.

Switzerland is very accommodating- the right wing parties make complaining about said accommodations their main selling point. Sure it says that entry depends on the discretion of the authorities- but their discretion is very, very generous.

From what I read online, it's not as generous as you suppose, and not any more generous than many other countries.

[kiore]

France can be a bit tricky, the controlles (ID checks) are sometimes carried out in seemingly innocuous places eg metro exits that are connected to a main rail station. It was a concern for me when I didn't have the correct paperwork so I avoided the exits near Gare du Nord etc and dressed in local clothes and tried not to look black or arab Always having a ticket helped as they usually checked that first and I never got asked for ID when I was over my visa fortunately. Now I have a Carte de sejour (Residents card) I never get asked, must be a confidence thing.

[Coito ergo sum]

France can be a bit tricky, the controlles (ID checks) are sometimes carried out in seemingly innocuous places eg metro exits that are connected to a main rail station. It was a concern for me when I didn't have the correct paperwork so I avoided the exits near Gare du Nord etc and dressed in local clothes and tried not to look black or arab Always having a ticket helped as they usually checked that first and I never got asked for ID when I was over my visa fortunately. Now I have a Carte de sejour (Residents card) I never get asked, must be a confidence thing.

But...they are allowed to ask...and they don't need reasonable suspicion....

[Martok]

Who cares what is and is not a libertarian's worst nightmare?

I guess you do.

[Coito ergo sum]

Who cares what is and is not a libertarian's worst nightmare?

I guess you do.

I don't. You just seem to bring up Libertarians a lot.

[kiore]

France can be a bit tricky, the controlles (ID checks) are sometimes carried out in seemingly innocuous places eg metro exits that are connected to a main rail station. It was a concern for me when I didn't have the correct paperwork so I avoided the exits near Gare du Nord etc and dressed in local clothes and tried not to look black or arab Always having a ticket helped as they usually checked that first and I never got asked for ID when I was over my visa fortunately. Now I have a Carte de sejour (Residents card) I never get asked, must be a confidence thing.

But...they are allowed to ask...and they don't need reasonable suspicion....

To fall under the border provisions they do need to do it at an entrance point, thus the metro exit connecting to Gard du Nord, also the ticket check gives reason no ticket=crime, the reasonable suspicion thing as well. Why this causes so much anger is that the reasonable suspicion is perceived as overused against certain ethnic groups and has resulted in civil disturbances riots etc. The massive car burning rampage a few years ago was started when 2 teenagers died when fleeing a controle in the suburbs (not a border). Of course being caught sans papers is not automatic deportation or imprisonment, but the controle is viewed as a form of harassment for some groups. Me even though I was 'illegal' at some point was almost never pulled over for a controle, while citizens I knew from some ethnic backgrounds were checked frequently, this I think is the major risk of targeting people like this.

[Coito ergo sum]

France can be a bit tricky, the controlles (ID checks) are sometimes carried out in seemingly innocuous places eg metro exits that are connected to a main rail station. It was a concern for me when I didn't have the correct paperwork so I avoided the exits near Gare du Nord etc and dressed in local clothes and tried not to look black or arab Always having a ticket helped as they usually checked that first and I never got asked for ID when I was over my visa fortunately. Now I have a Carte de sejour (Residents card) I never get asked, must be a confidence thing.

But...they are allowed to ask...and they don't need reasonable suspicion....

To fall under the border provisions they do need to do it at an entrance point, thus the metro exit connecting to Gard du Nord, also the ticket check gives reason no ticket=crime, the reasonable suspicion thing as well. Why this causes so much anger is that the reasonable suspicion is perceived as overused against certain ethnic groups and has resulted in civil disturbances riots etc. The massive car burning rampage a few years ago was started when 2 teenagers died when fleeing a controle in the suburbs (not a border). Of course being caught sans papers is not automatic deportation or imprisonment, but the controle is viewed as a form of harassment for some groups. Me even though I was 'illegal' at some point was almost never pulled over for a controle, while citizens I knew from some ethnic backgrounds were checked frequently, this I think is the major risk of targeting people like this.

According to French law, if I'm in the middle of Paris, and a cop is engaged in any "inquiry or investigation" he can ask me for my immigration status and verify it, along with my identification, he can also do so for whatever reason in order to "protect public order and prevent harm to persons or property." Frankly, the Arizona law doesn't even come close to that.

And, what really pisses me off is fucking CHINA chiming in with their bullshit complaints about it. Fucking CHINA???? They need fucking passports to travel between Cantons and their police don't need a fucking reason to check anybody's papers, and they have the gall to comment on a US "reasonable suspicion" law? Criminy. I don't get the worldwide hypocrisy on this issue. Arizona is not an enacting a law that is any more stringent than in Belgium, France, the UK, Mexico, Spain, Italy, etc., and yet it's for some reason a moral outrage.

[leo-rcc]

In the Netherlands everybody is supposed to be able to show their identity card or passport when the police ask you to. That usually only happens when there is a problem or a situation that might become a problem. The last one really works very well. If a group of people start to act up in a crowd, just pick a person from that group and be very thorough with the check of his/her identity. Oddly enough most people of that group have urgent business elsewhere.

[Animavore]

In Ireland you have to be able to win a drinking competition to be accepted.