How Can I Help My Friend?

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How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by traditionaldrummer » Sat May 08, 2010 5:59 pm

Hi folks. I am new - first post - and to get it out of the way, you have a great forum! Love it. Blah blah, lots of booty-smooching to the site owners, etc.

About me: I believe I've always been an atheist but at various times when I was younger I tried various religions to see if there was any truth to them, found none, then abandoned whatever agnosticism I had for full blown atheism. I'm much happier after shedding all superstitious thinking.

Anyway, a great friend of mine is a former christian apologist who was of the Universalist Unitarian variety. Pretty rare from what I've seen. He was shrewd about it, knew the bible inside & out, knew religious history inside & out, had a radio show about it for a while, was an ecumenical preacher - the whole bit. He remained fully respectful of my atheism and I about his religious beliefs. Our mutual respect paved the way for a great friendship to this very day.

About a year or two ago he had some kind of epiphany, started putting two and two together along with healthy reasoning and rejected the christ-myth once and for all. Good for him! He adamantly denies the christ-myth and goes toe to toe with turbochristians in debates for his occasional amusement. Good for him! Unfortunately, I've heard him make this statement on more than once occasion:

"I reject atheism".

He expresses that 'he feels there's something more' and rationalizes it with human being's limited perceptions, saying things such as 'electromagnetic frequencies surround us but we have no way to sense it'. Sigh. Okay, whatever. The BAD thing is that the gulf he's created by rejecting religion but denying atheism is beginning to fill up with some strange stuff. He feels as if he's on a quest for knowledge and does so by trolling the internet, youtube and the like. He's somewhat discerning about things but seems to have now developed some far-out theories as a result of his "research": Zechariah Sitchin and David Icke-type alien interaction stuff, chemtrails, 911 was an inside job, the New World Order is slowly coming to pass, the Federal Reserve is controlling nearly everything, evil cabals of cigar-chomping reprobates are controlling the world, etc.

It seems he's replaced the metaphysical godhead that used to control everything (that he could worship) with the human element who now controls everything for their self-serving nefarious purposes (that he can perpetually denounce). The religious style control structure seems intact, and "evil people" serve as the proxy for his old, rejected god.

The question: how do you respectfully save someone from heading down an equally dangerous path of poor thinking? Or is it simply impossible? At least as a christian apologist he was somewhat contained and controllable. Now that he's discovered the enormous number of conspiracy theories out there and begun absorbing some of them into his philosophy he's becoming quite difficult to tolerate. I've been successful at changing the topic when he begins to go off but I'd really prefer to get him away from these potentially dangerous lines of thinking. Has anyone here gone through this and found any successful ways to counter this kind of thing? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much for your time in reading my post. :P

Sincerely,
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Trolldor » Sat May 08, 2010 6:07 pm

In order to counter-act woo, it's a matter of education. Don't debate with him, don't argue, not without the ability to point to him to research papers, to experiments and tests. Even simple videos like those of James Randi, recorded tests.
Get him to read some of Carl Sagan's books, or watch "Cosmos" the series.
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by charlou » Sun May 09, 2010 12:38 am

^^^ Good advice there.

Strange where the human mind can go, and the how of that is fascinating ... When people change paradigms like your friend has, on that level at least they're not the same person they were, and no wonder the relationship is affected ...


Hello and welcome to the forum, td. :cheers:
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Tails Turrosaki » Sun May 09, 2010 12:44 am

Statistics show that about 1/12 children go against their parent's saying and develop their own mind. This is normally what causes atheism.

It's all about luck. :dono:

You just gotta get your friend to stop speaking about atheism as it's a bad thing. He should NOT be rejecting atheism, but EVOLUTION. There's a huge difference there, and you need to inform him that as well.
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by charlou » Sun May 09, 2010 12:54 am

Tails Turrosaki wrote:He should NOT be rejecting atheism, but EVOLUTION.
He should be rejecting evolution? :think:
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Tails Turrosaki » Sun May 09, 2010 1:06 am

Charlou wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:He should NOT be rejecting atheism, but EVOLUTION.
He should be rejecting evolution? :think:
Yes. You can't reject not believing in God. How do you reject nothing?

Evolution is something.
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by traditionaldrummer » Sun May 09, 2010 1:53 am

Tails Turrosaki wrote:
Charlou wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:He should NOT be rejecting atheism, but EVOLUTION.
He should be rejecting evolution? :think:
Yes. You can't reject not believing in God. How do you reject nothing?

Evolution is something.
Oddly enough, he rejects Darwinism, maybe not so much evolution. He has the Ben Stein attitude that Darwinism is a "new religion" that somehow stifles free speech. Fair enough I suppose, but no more so than any other scientific advancement has rejected free speech about flat-earth hypothesis.

Although he's stated these things I know he's much more intelligent than what I've painted in these forum snippets. I think he's just playing pseudo-skeptic for whatever reason. As I said, he thinks he's on a "quest for knowledge". But he also rejects Darwinism and evolution in part based on claims by Michael Cremo, the Vedic creationist. I've pointed this out and he admitted it was absurd, yet "interesting".

I've had to accept he's in Fruitcakeland for now at least. But, not only are we good friends but he is my guitar player and we are in a moderately successful rock band, so the relationship is not just personal but professional also. This makes it much harder to just walk away for a little while.

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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by traditionaldrummer » Sun May 09, 2010 1:57 am

Before I forget -

Thanks for the great advice and kind words, everybody :)

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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Pennant » Sun May 09, 2010 2:09 am

To help your friend, I think you might explore the mechanisms whereby he came to the conclusion that Christian dogma was false and then rejected it. If he was very knowledgeable about the Bible and Christian teaching, he must have subjected the tenets of his faith to critical enquiry and having done so found that they were false or at best unsubstantiated.

So I would suggest to your friend that he does exactly the same with all those wild theories that he is now postulating as a means to fill the huge void that was left behind when he rejected his religious belief system. Suggest to him that he takes each element of the theories that he has suggested, subject each of them individually to critical analysis and only accept them when there is evidence available to support the theory. Encourage him to reject unsubstantiated assertions and if he can do that he may come to a realisation that some of his wild theories have no basis. Get him to focus on Evidence! Evidence! Evidence!

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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Pennant » Sun May 09, 2010 2:33 am

traditionaldrummer wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:
Charlou wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:He should NOT be rejecting atheism, but EVOLUTION.
He should be rejecting evolution? :think:
Yes. You can't reject not believing in God. How do you reject nothing?

Evolution is something.
Oddly enough, he rejects Darwinism, maybe not so much evolution. He has the Ben Stein attitude that Darwinism is a "new religion" that somehow stifles free speech. Fair enough I suppose, but no more so than any other scientific advancement has rejected free speech about flat-earth hypothesis.

Although he's stated these things I know he's much more intelligent than what I've painted in these forum snippets. I think he's just playing pseudo-skeptic for whatever reason. As I said, he thinks he's on a "quest for knowledge". But he also rejects Darwinism and evolution in part based on claims by Michael Cremo, the Vedic creationist. I've pointed this out and he admitted it was absurd, yet "interesting".
Darwinism is certainly not "new". The Origin of the Species was first published in 1859. But if your friend were to look for evidence to support Darwin's theories, he will find a mountain of it out there. There is an excellent summary of the evidence for evolution in Richard Dawkins' book, "The Greatest Show on Earth". Your friend might find that book interesting.

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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by charlou » Sun May 09, 2010 4:44 am

Tails Turrosaki wrote:
Charlou wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:He should NOT be rejecting atheism, but EVOLUTION.
He should be rejecting evolution? :think:
Yes. You can't reject not believing in God. How do you reject nothing?

Evolution is something.
Ahkay, I get your meaning in that context.
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by FBM » Sun May 09, 2010 8:43 am

Hiya, and welcome traditionaldrummer! :td:

I'd recommend avoiding arguments with your friend (sounds like you do that already) because interpersonal dynamics too often come into play to cloud reason. If I were in your shoes, I'd make a deal with him/her: I'd offer to read one of the wing-nut books in exchange for him/her reading Carl Sagan's Demon-Haunted World.
sagan-demon.jpg
sagan-demon.jpg (30.59 KiB) Viewed 2014 times
Also, suggest this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ainty-bias

Edit: I forgot my main suggestion! Invite him/her to join up here. We'll take care of the problem... Trust us... :plot:
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Feck » Sun May 09, 2010 10:31 am

Oh a guitar player .........you should have said , just leave him to it be his friend and only argue if he asks your opinion .
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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Link » Tue May 18, 2010 12:56 pm

FBM wrote:Hiya, and welcome traditionaldrummer! :td:

I'd recommend avoiding arguments with your friend (sounds like you do that already) because interpersonal dynamics too often come into play to cloud reason. If I were in your shoes, I'd make a deal with him/her: I'd offer to read one of the wing-nut books in exchange for him/her reading Carl Sagan's Demon-Haunted World.
sagan-demon.jpg
Also, suggest this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ainty-bias

Edit: I forgot my main suggestion! Invite him/her to join up here. We'll take care of the problem... Trust us... :plot:
+1

This is a good way to go :tup:

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Re: How Can I Help My Friend?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue May 18, 2010 1:20 pm

traditionaldrummer wrote:
"I reject atheism".

He expresses that 'he feels there's something more' and rationalizes it with human being's limited perceptions, saying things such as 'electromagnetic frequencies surround us but we have no way to sense it'.
I would explain to him that atheism is not a belief that there is "nothing more." It's a belief that there are no gods, or the lack of belief in gods. Many atheists, like Theravada Buddhists, believe in "something more." What that "something" is, depends. I'm an atheist, and I believe that there is "something more" beyond what I presently know and can perceive with my senses. One need not reject atheism to hold belief that there is "something more."

However, I would add that believing that there is "something more" is NOT an answer. Repeat. It is NOT an answer. It's the QUESTION! What more is there? There is plainly "something more" than our perceptions. But, that doesn't mean we leap to gods. We try to answer the question of "what is the something more?"
traditionaldrummer wrote:
The question: how do you respectfully save someone from heading down an equally dangerous path of poor thinking? Or is it simply impossible?
You just keep holding him to the burden of proof when he makes an assertion.

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