High School Kids Suspended for Wearing American Flag Shirts

[Link]

I mean what is really the difference between someone born 1 mile south of the border and someone born 1 mile North? geographically they would share more in common with each other than from those 20 miles away in their respective countries so whats the big deal?

Try making that argument to someone living in El Paso, right across the border from Juarez-Cuidad! One's a very safe city, and the other is one of the most violent places on earth. The border doesn't seem quite so trivial there.

I'm not really sure how to respond, You make a good point but I feel that my underlying point still stands, even without national borders you would still have areas that are safer to live than others.

But who gets to draw the line on the map? What utility do the borders have other than keeping "them" out? I'm not even saying I have a viable alternative solution i'm just trying to point out that dividing yourself arbitrarily and then fighting against those that you have divided yourself from seems irrational.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I mean what is really the difference between someone born 1 mile south of the border and someone born 1 mile North? geographically they would share more in common with each other than from those 20 miles away in their respective countries so whats the big deal?

Try making that argument to someone living in El Paso, right across the border from Juarez-Cuidad! One's a very safe city, and the other is one of the most violent places on earth. The border doesn't seem quite so trivial there.

I'm not really sure how to respond, You make a good point but I feel that my underlying point still stands, even without national borders you would still have areas that are safer to live than others.

But who gets to draw the line on the map? What utility do the borders have other than keeping "them" out? I'm not even saying I have a viable alternative solution i'm just trying to point out that dividing yourself arbitrarily and then fighting against those that you have divided yourself from seems irrational.

All lines are arbitrary, even "natural" ones. Nature didn't intend for us to say "Okay, this is my side of the river/ocean/mountain range, and that's yours." But, again, patriotism is about more that knowing who you're going to fight. We support the national park system in the US partly because it's OUR country and we want to keep parts of it pristine as possible. (And then we visit those spots in the millions every year. Go figure.) So automatically dissing "patriotism" is just as bad as every other sweeping generalization you'll find.

[Link]

I mean what is really the difference between someone born 1 mile south of the border and someone born 1 mile North? geographically they would share more in common with each other than from those 20 miles away in their respective countries so whats the big deal?

Try making that argument to someone living in El Paso, right across the border from Juarez-Cuidad! One's a very safe city, and the other is one of the most violent places on earth. The border doesn't seem quite so trivial there.

I'm not really sure how to respond, You make a good point but I feel that my underlying point still stands, even without national borders you would still have areas that are safer to live than others.

But who gets to draw the line on the map? What utility do the borders have other than keeping "them" out? I'm not even saying I have a viable alternative solution i'm just trying to point out that dividing yourself arbitrarily and then fighting against those that you have divided yourself from seems irrational.

All lines are arbitrary, even "natural" ones. Nature didn't intend for us to say "Okay, this is my side of the river/ocean/mountain range, and that's yours." But, again, patriotism is about more that knowing who you're going to fight. We support the national park system in the US partly because it's OUR country and we want to keep parts of it pristine as possible. (And then we visit those spots in the millions every year. Go figure.) So automatically dissing "patriotism" is just as bad as every other sweeping generalization you'll find.

But wouldn't you want to protect those parks and keep areas pristine just as much if there were no border lines? Plenty of people want to protect the amazonian rainforest, doesn't mean they have to be from Brazil.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But wouldn't you want to protect those parks just as much if there were no border lines? Plenty of people want to protect the amazonian rainforest, doesn't mean they have to be from Brazil.

Don't have the what-if gene, so I can't answer that.

However, if you think Ian and the other veterans on this thread served out of a profit motive . . .

[Link]

But wouldn't you want to protect those parks just as much if there were no border lines? Plenty of people want to protect the amazonian rainforest, doesn't mean they have to be from Brazil.

Don't have the what-if gene, so I can't answer that.

However, if you think Ian and the other veterans on this thread served out of a profit motive . . .

Honestly I understand where you're coming from it's just something i've been mulling over for a while and it just seems a touch ridiculous when you actually think about it...

Suggesting that I am belittling the service of veterans seems a tad Ad Hominem to be honest if any Veteran feels that I have belittled their contribution to their country by pointing out the arbitrary nature of the borders of said country then feel free to PM me and I will apologise.

I'm going to leave it there as I seem to just be reiterating my point, now it's Friday, who wants to go down the pub?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But wouldn't you want to protect those parks just as much if there were no border lines? Plenty of people want to protect the amazonian rainforest, doesn't mean they have to be from Brazil.

Don't have the what-if gene, so I can't answer that.

However, if you think Ian and the other veterans on this thread served out of a profit motive . . .

Honestly I understand where you're coming from it's just something i've been mulling over for a while and it just seems a touch ridiculous when you actually think about it...

You're saying I HAVEN'T thought about it, right? "seems a tad Ad Hominem to be honest"

Suggesting that I am belittling the service of veterans seems a tad Ad Hominem to be honest if any Veteran feels that I have belittled their contribution to their country by pointing out the arbitrary nature of the borders of said country then feel free to PM me and I will apologise.

I was simply pointing out that even if borders are something one chooses to fight over, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Martok]

How is it possible to get in trouble for wearing an American flag, in America?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

How is it possible to get in trouble for wearing an American flag, in America?

Political Correctness.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yea, everyone has the right to do whatever they want blah blah bla!

The point is in this story that kids wearing the US flag shirts were trying to make some kind of a statement as in "Fuck you Mehico" this is the US of A and go celebrate your cinko mayonaze somewhere else. It's a hot issue now days and can spark an argument very quickly especially among kids in school which affects the whole school and I think that's what the principal was trying to avoid.

However, they did not say "Fuck you Mexico," at least not that we've heard. They wore t-shirts that on any other day would have been just fine.

The better lesson to teach the high school kids at this school is that nobody owns a day. Everyone is certainly entitled to revere and celebrate what they want to revere and celebrate, but that doesn't mean you can prevent others from doing their thing. A very telling quote is the Mexican-American who said that it was insulting for the kids to wear American flag t-shirts on Cinco de Mayo. Well, the response to that is, "I'm sorry, but, as long as they aren't being disruptive in school, and are within the dress code, they can wear what they like, just as you can."

[Bella Fortuna]

But some groups own months, apparently.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yea, everyone has the right to do whatever they want blah blah bla!

The point is in this story that kids wearing the US flag shirts were trying to make some kind of a statement as in "Fuck you Mehico" this is the US of A and go celebrate your cinko mayonaze somewhere else. It's a hot issue now days and can spark an argument very quickly especially among kids in school which affects the whole school and I think that's what the principal was trying to avoid.

So free speech has its limits, yes?

I didn't see it as free speech. I see it as taunting for a fight. If they want to do it at home or in their neighborhood with their parents consent, who cares, but this is in a school and kids that want nothing to do with either side might get hurt. I'm thinking of my son recently who witnessed two boys fighting each other to a pulp right in front of everyone in the hall. Who knows if one of them decides to pull out a weapon and innocent bystanders get hurt.

Yea, my son thought it was a cool fight to watch, but it wasn't fun for me to listen to it knowing what might happen.

Sure, but your assumption is that they were taunting. Wearing an Old Navy t-shirt with an American flag on it is not taunting. Now, if they were doing other things, or saying other things, that were taunts to other kids, then school administrators should step in.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Sure, but your assumption is that they were taunting. Wearing an Old Navy t-shirt with an American flag on it is not taunting. Now, if they were doing other things, or saying other things, that were taunts to other kids, then school administrators should step in.

Taunting should be banned. Let's start with pep rallies and cheers at football games.

[Coito ergo sum]

There's no problem there. The problem comes when a fight is started about it and innocent people get hurt. Kids, especially teenagers don't seem to know how to handle their anger too well. Maybe some do, I'm speaking from my own experience with my own kids. It doesn't take much to get them all heated up and in a fight.

If we are at a point where wearing an Old Navy American flag t-shirt is enough to make school administrator's nervous about school order, then I would say we are in dire need of school uniforms.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Now where did I read "Nobody has the right to not be offended"?

[Coito ergo sum]

One person's "inflammatory" is another person's "pride".

But why be proud of where you happen to have been born???

You can ask the same questions of the Mexican-Americans expressing pride in their heritage.

In my view, people feel a sense of belonging to a nationality or ethnicity the same way that they feel a sense of belonging to a family. For some reason, for example, I made a specific effort to learn about the language, culture and history of my parents' home country, even though I was born here. I root for them, secondarily to the US, during the Olympics, and I am more interested in what goes on there than most other countries. I have a sense of belonging.

What's the point? The problem with patriotism is its completely arbitrary, If the 5 kids in the US flag shirts had been born south of the US/Mexican border then their opinion would be the exact opposite on the matter, surely you can see how inherently ridiculous that is?

Sure. I agree. It's ridiculous for Mexican Americans to get all hopped up about their heritage, and perceived insults to their heritage, the same as it would be if a group of English American students got all pissy because some kids wore American flag t-shirts on Liberation Day (last Monday in May). I mean, maybe the Mexican Americans should have been sent home because their en masse wearing and waving of Mexican flags is intimidating to non-Mexican students and might cause a fight.