Argument with my family Grr!

[Link]

ARGGHHH!!

I've just got out of a "heated discussion" with my parents in which my mum was trying to argue that the catholic church isn't to blame for the prevalence of HIV/Aids in Africa and that education was far more important than the allowance of condoms plus they do so much charity work like setting up schools and blah blah blah! I argued that the catholic church is actively trying to prevent effective sexual health education in Africa and by teaching abstinence (a ridiculous notion as we all know here ) instead and condemning the use of condoms are effectively handing these people a death sentence.

She was brought up catholic and attended a convent school but hasn't been to church in years and she can't seem to shake this automatic defensive stance whenever the Catholic church gets criticised

I ended up getting frustrated that she wouldn't choose to see through the bullshit and may have suggested that it was absurd that according to the catholic church her own son would burn in hell for all eternity for not accepting a jewish zombie as my master and ritually eating his "body" and "blood"

She found that offensive and said that the catholic church no longer teaches "fire and damnation" but seeing as I haven't been to church in years (since I was 11 in fact) I wouldn't know that

I know it will all blow over and won't be a big deal by the morning but it is so frustrating when the people you care about allow themselves to wallow around in this pool of vacuous crap without ever questioning what some 80 year old virgin tells them about sex and the way to live their lives!!

Anyway, rant over and i feel a touch better now that i've typed all of this out

[Feck]

Defending the Church is drummed into Catholics from an early age ..... They are very good at making it stick ...

[kiki5711]

Oh yea, they become very defensive, to the point of extreme anger.

[Tigger]

I think I'm lucky in that regard. My mum was brought up a Catholic but renounced it all; my dad was brought up by a ... fuck I've forgotten what he was brought up by: my granddad was a religious type anyway, but Dad binned that too. My aunt was a JW, but she's dead and watching us, as they are apt to do. So I got off lightly.

Apropos of nothing, bar the OP title, if you type ;grr; with colons, you get this rather cute thing

[Link]

I think I'm lucky in that regard. My mum was brought up a Catholic but renounced it all; my dad was brought up by a ... fuck I've forgotten what he was brought up by: my granddad was a religious type anyway, but Dad binned that too. My aunt was a JW, but she's dead and watching us, as they are apt to do. So I got off lightly.

Apropos of nothing, bar the OP title, if you type ;grr; with colons, you get this rather cute thing

My parents have never been particularily religious (or so i thought) my dad was brought up to indifference to the whole thing but I guess my mum never fully renounced it.

She doesn't act as if she is a catholic with regards to church, confession, hell etc. etc. more of a general follower of the Golden rule but for some reason she has boxed that into the catholic faith when it works just as well (better in fact) as and of itself.

I feel they've brought me up to make my own decisions which is good compared to what some of my friends have had to deal with (one of my mates dad is a Vicar) but then when i actively oppose religion (catholicism in particular) it seems to hit a nerve.

I guess it's a lot harder to shake that knee-jerk reaction as a result of indoctrination then i thought it would be for them.

[cowiz]

That's Catholics for you. They do that.

[tattuchu]

It took my mother a long time to rid herself of her religious superstitions. A family tragedy seemed to take care of the last little bit. Unfortunately, she's only substituted one set of woo for another

[Tigger]

I'm amazed that my mum never had me christened. Delighted too, but she was still a bit wooish while I was a sprog.

[Svartalf]

Not to side with your Mama especially, but putting the AIDS problem in Africa at the Church's door is grossly overestimating its influence.

[FreeThinker23]

She found that offensive and said that the catholic church no longer teaches "fire and damnation" but seeing as I haven't been to church in years (since I was 11 in fact) I wouldn't know that

Ask her why the church changed their position about Hell, as well as Purgatory. Also, ask why anyone should believe that the other doctrines of the Catholic Church are correct, given that these doctrines have changed. If the popes really have a communication with God, shouldn't they have gotten it right the first time?

Also, if Hell is just a separation from God, how is that any different than being an atheist in this life? Does she think Satan/Lucifer is real? If so, what role does he play in the afterlife if there is no actual pit of fire?

Not to side with your Mama especially, but putting the AIDS problem in Africa at the Church's door is grossly overestimating its influence.

That AIDS became an epidemic in Africa is not the church's fault, but they do bare a great deal of responsibility for facilitating the spread of the disease. Millions of people could potentially be saved if people were properly educated on the use of condoms.

[Link]

Not to side with your Mama especially, but putting the AIDS problem in Africa at the Church's door is grossly overestimating its influence.

I probably should have been clearer in my OP, she was arguing that minimal blame could be placed on the Catholic church and that condemning the use of condoms and proper sexual education had little to no effect on the propogation of the Virus. I was arguing that the church needs to shoulder the blame for a lot of death and disease when they actively try to prevent a method of disease control, not to mention the amount of children born into families that can't support them due to the fact that contraception isn't allowed and abstinence is unrealisitic.

I of course don't believe that blame lies solely with the RCC i've got issues with the denial of the leaders of South Africa that there is even a problem and the refusal to support the rollout of Antiretrovirals, as well as certain individuals who sell the lie that Vitamin C tablets are all that is needed to combat the virus thereby preventing the use of ARVs in mothers and their children.

Apologies if you got the idea that I was placing sole blame at the doors of the RCC but ignorance and disregard for human life as shown above does somewhat anger me and it is very hard to deny that the Catholic church does play a big roll in the prevention of effective treatment & control of the HIV/Aids virus.

[floppit]

Link - this is just a suggestion. If you want a few chinks and dints in your Mum's resolve to support the catholic church you might get further by focussing on where you agree. It's human nature to entrench our own position when facing direct opposition, therefore if you want her to shift ground as a result of the conversation it's the shared territory that has the best chance of success.

For example - does your Mum agree with condoms? Does your Mum agree that condoms can play a positive role in fighting STD's? Does your Mum agree that the church should argue against their use and distribution? All of these are easier to evidence and less directly confrontational to a very lapsed catholic. Once you get into the multiple factors involved in causes of disease spreading the amount attributed to any single factor can be argued almost endlessly, however if you avoid the attempt to attribute a specific quantity of blame and just work on whether the church's ACTIONS are helpful in Africa it's an easier pitch.

If you get agreement about contraception, benefits of condoms, and Africa's need to fight AIDS and the C church being wrong - hell, get that and the news may do half the rest for you without having to get heated at all.

Oh BTW - I still struggle to do the above with my own family, I have improved, enough to know it works but every now and again my hot headed side wins through and the positions once more get further entrenched.

[Link]

Thanks for the suggestions Floppit i'll bear them in mind,

It's not often that I let my frustration show I think the fact that she was defensive right off the bat, made it seem like I was attacking her position more than I actually was and that probably didn't help.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Thanks for the suggestions Floppit i'll bear them in mind,

It's not often that I let my frustration show I think the fact that she was defensive right off the bat, made it seem like I was attacking her position more than I actually was and that probably didn't help.

I get exactly the same from my parents.

"Why are you attacking us?" "Why are you so angry?" "Why do you want to ruin this for us?"

I can talk about anything with them. Anything at all. Except religion - no - except their religion. That is where the blinkers come down. It's a painful thing to watch.

They are CofE and are quite happy to diss the pope and the muslims. They treat the old testament and even parts of the new as nothing more than myths and legends. They hardly believe at all in an interventionist god (although they do insist on a few occasions where they have seen the 'power of prayer' - selection bias anyone?) They are almost deists - but christian deists, if that even makes sense.

I keep chipping away though. You never know.

[joelbct]

ARGGHHH!!

I've just got out of a "heated discussion" with my parents in which my mum was trying to argue that the catholic church isn't to blame for the prevalence of HIV/Aids in Africa and that education was far more important than the allowance of condoms plus they do so much charity work like setting up schools and blah blah blah! I argued that the catholic church is actively trying to prevent effective sexual health education in Africa and by teaching abstinence (a ridiculous notion as we all know here ) instead and condemning the use of condoms are effectively handing these people a death sentence.

I'm sorry man. I can only imagine what it is like to have literalist religion forced upon you growing up.

You'll be out of the house no doubt before long, that should improve things. Count your blessings (so to speak), at least they don't force you to attend church anymore!