Speed of Light and Energy...?

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epepke
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by epepke » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:32 pm

I like to talk about relativity, and sometimes I explain it to people (not now, as there are plenty of videos). I am fascinated by the ways in which people don't understand relativity. In a lot of cases, it boils down to not understanding the principle of relativity.

We're used to the notion of the relativity of speed. If you're driving fast, a relatively slow-flying insect will go "splat" on the windshield. Some sort of "absolute speed" is meaningless; all that matters is the bug's speed relative to the car's speed. So something like a mile per hour doesn't mean anything absolute; it's only meaningful when comparing the motion of one thing relative to another.

Well, in relativity it turns out that a lot of things are like that. Not only is a mile per hour relative, but a mile is relative, and an hour is relative. There is no absolute hour sitting somewhere; it's relative to the observer. Other relative things include energy, momentum, and (relativistic) mass. That's most of the Special Theory of Relativity; the rest is some math and the observation that the speed of light (c) is always the same. (GR adds the idea that gravity and acceleration are equivalent, and a hell of a lot more math.)

When people start to understand this, if they're smart, they'll usually come up with the same question and ask, "Does time really slow down for the guy in the spaceship, or does it just seem to do so to us?" That's actually a very deep question, but the answer is simple: There is no really. There is no absolute time such that one can say that this one is real and that one is seeming. The only meaning of times and distances are what can be measured, what seems to an observer.

When people don't get relativity, it's often because of inability or unwillingness to understand that. So when you try to explain time dilation or Lorenz contraction, they think there's something about speed that somehow makes the time go slower or squashes the object. Then they reject the idea as ludicrous. (That idea actually existed in theories of the luminiferous aether that predated relativity, and it was ludicrous.) But that's not what relativity is saying at all.

Sometimes, to make people happier, I point out that there are things in relativity that might be called absolute, and so relativity just shifts our ideas of what is relative and what is not to other things. The speed of light, c, is always the same. It's the only speed that is always the same, prompting some people to say that maybe we shouldn't think of it as a speed. Distances and times are different for different observers, but when you put distances and times together in a particular way, you get something called the interval that all observers can agree upon. Similarly, while energies and momenta differ, if you put those two together in the same way, you get something called the rest mass which does not change. If you solve that equation for objects with a momentum of 0, you get the famous E=mc^2

Which leads us to a perspicacious (though not quite accurate) comment in the OP.
dj357 wrote:It follows from Einstein that as you approach the speed of light your mass increases, but is this actually true? e = mc2 tells us that for an object to reach 'c', the speed of light, you need infinite mass or infinite energy, but would it be possible for light to simply be mass that exists as pure energy...?
Well, sort of. At c, the aforementioned equation gives a rest mass of 0. So light doesn't have a rest mass and is what you might call "pure" energy and momentum.

This indicates another way of seeing that you can't accelerate an object with rest mass to c. No matter how fast you go, when you combine the energy and momentum in that way, you'll always get a rest mass that is constant and not zero (well, if it's a rocket, your rest mass will go down as you throw mass out the rockets, so let's just imagine a capsule in a really big rubber band). In order to go at the speed of light, the rest mass has to be zero. So not only will going faster and faster not get you to c, but in an important way will not get you any closer to c.

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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by dj357 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:10 pm

epepke wrote:I like to talk about relativity, and sometimes I explain it to people (not now, as there are plenty of videos). I am fascinated by the ways in which people don't understand relativity. In a lot of cases, it boils down to not understanding the principle of relativity.

We're used to the notion of the relativity of speed. If you're driving fast, a relatively slow-flying insect will go "splat" on the windshield. Some sort of "absolute speed" is meaningless; all that matters is the bug's speed relative to the car's speed. So something like a mile per hour doesn't mean anything absolute; it's only meaningful when comparing the motion of one thing relative to another.

Well, in relativity it turns out that a lot of things are like that. Not only is a mile per hour relative, but a mile is relative, and an hour is relative. There is no absolute hour sitting somewhere; it's relative to the observer. Other relative things include energy, momentum, and (relativistic) mass. That's most of the Special Theory of Relativity; the rest is some math and the observation that the speed of light (c) is always the same. (GR adds the idea that gravity and acceleration are equivalent, and a hell of a lot more math.)

When people start to understand this, if they're smart, they'll usually come up with the same question and ask, "Does time really slow down for the guy in the spaceship, or does it just seem to do so to us?" That's actually a very deep question, but the answer is simple: There is no really. There is no absolute time such that one can say that this one is real and that one is seeming. The only meaning of times and distances are what can be measured, what seems to an observer.

When people don't get relativity, it's often because of inability or unwillingness to understand that. So when you try to explain time dilation or Lorenz contraction, they think there's something about speed that somehow makes the time go slower or squashes the object. Then they reject the idea as ludicrous. (That idea actually existed in theories of the luminiferous aether that predated relativity, and it was ludicrous.) But that's not what relativity is saying at all.

Sometimes, to make people happier, I point out that there are things in relativity that might be called absolute, and so relativity just shifts our ideas of what is relative and what is not to other things. The speed of light, c, is always the same. It's the only speed that is always the same, prompting some people to say that maybe we shouldn't think of it as a speed. Distances and times are different for different observers, but when you put distances and times together in a particular way, you get something called the interval that all observers can agree upon. Similarly, while energies and momenta differ, if you put those two together in the same way, you get something called the rest mass which does not change. If you solve that equation for objects with a momentum of 0, you get the famous E=mc^2

Which leads us to a perspicacious (though not quite accurate) comment in the OP.
dj357 wrote:It follows from Einstein that as you approach the speed of light your mass increases, but is this actually true? e = mc2 tells us that for an object to reach 'c', the speed of light, you need infinite mass or infinite energy, but would it be possible for light to simply be mass that exists as pure energy...?
Well, sort of. At c, the aforementioned equation gives a rest mass of 0. So light doesn't have a rest mass and is what you might call "pure" energy and momentum.

This indicates another way of seeing that you can't accelerate an object with rest mass to c. No matter how fast you go, when you combine the energy and momentum in that way, you'll always get a rest mass that is constant and not zero (well, if it's a rocket, your rest mass will go down as you throw mass out the rockets, so let's just imagine a capsule in a really big rubber band). In order to go at the speed of light, the rest mass has to be zero. So not only will going faster and faster not get you to c, but in an important way will not get you any closer to c.
see, now, I understood all that. but to me it doesn't seem to be necessary to understand time as a dimension to accept any of the above. I get that there's no absolute, it's all relative, but once time as a dimension gets thrown in it all starts to go to shit for me.
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by epepke » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:14 pm

dj357 wrote:see, now, I understood all that. but to me it doesn't seem to be necessary to understand time as a dimension to accept any of the above. I get that there's no absolute, it's all relative, but once time as a dimension gets thrown in it all starts to go to shit for me.
Well, again. Time is a dimension can be troublesome, as space is 3 dimensions seems to be one of those things that people think are absolute. The idea space is 3 dimensions doesn't have any real meaning either. So I think you don't understand all that. You seem to think that space is 3 dimensions is a statement about reality, but it isn't--it's a statement about the mathematics of vector spaces that are normally used to describe space. To say that time is a dimension, albeit a different kind of one (because it's associated with a -1 metric instead of a +1 metric) is on equal footing, and if you use it, you get something that can describe spacetime. When you do that, the math becomes a lot easier and makes more sense. Consider the interval I talked about. You use something that looks a lot like the Pythagorean theorem to calculate it, as x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - t^2 Note the - sign; it encodes the concept of a Minkowskian spacetime with a metric [1, 1, 1, -1]. The time is the -1. Also, you can handle some transformations like rotations, using ordinary trig for the three spatial dimensions and hyperbolic trig for the time dimension.

The very idea of a dimension is a kind of abstraction, both for space and for time. You won't see any axes if you go to the beach, but you can put any three orthogonal axes you like, and you get a pretty good model of local space. Put a fourth, and you get a pretty good model of local spacetime. Not perfect, because in GR you have to use Riemannian spaces.

Furthermore, you don't really need a vector space at all. I prefer to use quaternion spaces. I find them more pleasing, but I won't describe them now.

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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by colubridae » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:18 pm

dj357 wrote:
epepke wrote:I like to talk about relativity,….
see, now, I understood all that. but to me it doesn't seem to be necessary to understand time as a dimension to accept any of the above. I get that there's no absolute, it's all relative, but once time as a dimension gets thrown in it all starts to go to shit for me.

Of course “it goes to shit for you...”
Nothing anyone says is going to convince you.

And you are perfectly entitled to not believe it.
Even after pages and pages of the identical stuff as epeke wrote, which you now for no reason that I can see miraculously understand.
That’s not being ‘rude’ by the way, just stating a fact.

People put in a lot of work for you.
They said the same things as epeke.
You didn’t understand it.
Now you do.????
Except you don’t really because if you did you would not say:-
but once time as a dimension gets thrown in it all starts to go to shit for me.

You are never going to learn this from other people if they let you set the agenda.

To teach someone the teacher must set the agenda
Not the pupil.
And you have to be made to do the work yourself…

So are you up for this? (you did say you are not a fucking moron)

(Running the thread this way will have three advantages

1. It is possible you don’t have the cerebral kVA to understand SR. Then your attempts will show that, and you will have to give up. It won’t be a reflection on you.

2. If are up to it, then you will understand it but it’s going to be hard work for you.

3 If you are trolling, deliberately jerking people around, you will just quietly disappear when the going gets tough.)



So here we go again…
What is the answer to this question:-

why does light only travel at c no matter what frame you are in?
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by dj357 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:35 pm

colubridae wrote:why does light only travel at c no matter what frame you are in?
I can't answer this question. Either tell me or don't. Pointing out the fact that I've been told repeatedly how and why SR works isn't going to make the answer magically pop into my head. I probably know the answer, but I cannot right now articulate an answer to it.

and by the way, I do have the brain power and the intelligence to understand this stuff, so just back off will you? I'm having honest intellectual trouble fully understanding some of these concepts. the reason is irrelevant. if you're intent on helping, then help. otherwise, as I mentioned before, just keep quiet.

so, mr. teacher. what's the answer?
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by colubridae » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:45 pm

dj357 wrote:
colubridae wrote:why does light only travel at c no matter what frame you are in?
I can't answer this question. Either tell me or don't. Pointing out the fact that I've been told repeatedly how and why SR works isn't going to make the answer magically pop into my head. I probably know the answer, but I cannot right now articulate an answer to it.

and by the way, I do have the brain power and the intelligence to understand this stuff, so just back off will you? I'm having honest intellectual trouble fully understanding some of these concepts. the reason is irrelevant. if you're intent on helping, then help. otherwise, as I mentioned before, just keep quiet.

so, mr. teacher. what's the answer?

uh-uh it is absolutely vital that you come to it yourself.... This won't work otherwise... no help from me

What is the answer to this question:-

why does light only travel at c no matter what frame you are in?
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by dj357 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:46 pm

somebody want to help me out before I have a nervous breakdown......?
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by colubridae » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:54 pm

dj357 wrote:somebody want to help me out before I have a nervous breakdown......?
Take your time go and find out.... but don't be lazy and do the work.
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by dj357 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:25 pm

colubridae wrote:
dj357 wrote:somebody want to help me out before I have a nervous breakdown......?
Take your time go and find out.... but don't be lazy and do the work.
i've been doing the work, i've been researching this stuff, I've been racking my brain, and I can't answer you, so either tell me, or leave me alone, because you are not helping.
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by dj357 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:28 pm

dj357 wrote:
colubridae wrote:
dj357 wrote:somebody want to help me out before I have a nervous breakdown......?
Take your time go and find out.... but don't be lazy and do the work.
i've been doing the work, i've been researching this stuff, I've been racking my brain, and I can't answer you, so either tell me, or leave me alone, because you are not helping.
on seconds thoughts, here's my one and only attempt. Lorentz factor.
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by colubridae » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:15 am

Ok this goes right against the grain for me…But I don’t want to seem cruel.


dj357 wrote:on seconds thoughts, here's my one and only attempt. Lorentz factor.
Stone cold.


dj357 wrote: you're gonna have to help me out here, I'm not sure what you're trying to lead me to.
Slightly warmer with this…





It goes right to the heart of the scientific principle.
What is the answer to this question:-

why does light only travel at c no matter what frame you are in?
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by oddmanout » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:33 am

What about this:

1) Time dilation: one clock is accelerated, put into orbit and is then compared to a clock here on earth.

There is a measurable difference in time, even after the experiment.

2) Length contraction: a train moving near the speed of light is observed to be compressed. But when the train is decelerated, the train is returned to it's normal length.

The length contraction doesn't last after the experiment, due to the deceleration.


I know 1) is true, but what about 2)? Assuming that it is true, how come time can be changed into a new static state while length contraction cannot?


Also; how is it that time, by default, is moving with the speed of light (minus the relative movement and acceleration)? Why is it that the time-dimension, which we perceive as just another dimension in GR, "behaves" differently than other dimensions? Or do we, by default, move through all dimensions of space with lightspeed?
Last edited by oddmanout on Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by Tigger » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:37 am

I can't see the merit in trying to help someone, but then insisting on asking the same question in the same way without amplification. It gets to the point where the person you're trying to help sees only the irritation of being asked the same thing repetitively. A teacher spotting their error in conveying a point badly will move on to use another technique to get the idea across. I don't know the answer either. Or if I do, I'm certainly not inclined now to suggest one in case I'm wrong. I suspect dj357 might feel the same.
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by dj357 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:01 am

@Tigger: right on the money.

@colubridae: so if I'm slightly warmer by saying I don't know where you're leading me. or by saying I don't know the answer. then you're either making some philosophical point about the nature of knowledge, referencing the amount of evidence we have for light-speed being constant, or you're exacerbating the situation. either way, I gave you my answer. as tigger says, you need to change tack here or just give me the answer. in either case I'm still quite inclined to simply tell you to 'f**k right off.'
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Re: Speed of Light and Energy...?

Post by hackenslash » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:03 pm

OK, a different tack, then.

Think about a Newtonian situation. The example of the cars as used in the earlier post will suffice. Imagine one of the cars moving toward you at 100 mph, while you are moving in front of it at 100 mph. The car is clearly never going to catch up with you, because you're moving away from it as fast as it's closing. Ask yourself what set of circumstances it would take for the car to catch up with you without you slowing down and without the car speeding up (this is moving from a Newtonian frame to a Relativistic frame). Does this question help you to understand, or to provide an answer to col's question?

Edit: Just to add a little clarity, think about what speed actually is, namely distance over time.
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