But what if you're wrong...?

[Lion IRC]

you are deliberately missing the point of Ono's question, Aslan IRC

you have an opportunity here to actually engender some respect by taking the bull by the horns and giving the question a good working over

i think you can do better than wilting and offering evasive Wormtonguery

take your time, think about it, give it a good cut and show some mettle

what do you have to lose?

Hi Piscator,
Opportunity to engender some respect here? Thats pretty rich given the context of the wager - a person being challenged to hold fast to what they really do think rather than just ...going along to get along... "bending to peer pressure".
I never deliberately miss the point. I do unto others what I wish they would do for me - namely, take them at their word.
Lion (IRC)

[Bolero]

Bolero, you'll probably never make any real dent in his programming but if you want to have a bit of fun try this. I found it several years ago and have always thought it was rather delightful.

The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven

Very nice, very nice. Thanks for that, mungbean.

strong arguments are not his forte. Blind faith, and a complete inability to see a logical, rational, well-supported argument when it's staring him in the face, on the other hand, he's really really good at.

He must be good at something. I mean, you married him, right?

More seriously, going by what you say about your husband, I don't really know why you see any purpose in asking us for help.

My purpose here is finding (and giving to him) enough food for thought to start making a difference in his thinking. I know it's a vain hope (the more time I spend here, the more I wonder what the hell I'm doing in this marriage), but I am just about heart-brokenly stressed out of my brain thinking how much better a man he could be. I laugh and cry in equal measure at the things he says re: religion and evolution, but in all seriousness, if you talk to him for five minutes without mentioning either of those topics, he's a fantastic guy. Then I meet non-theist men, and I feel so damn sad because I know I could be happier with someone like that, and in fact I could be happier with him if he'd just get over the god thing.

Frankly, I am truly depressed thinking of the kind of good little Christian girl he'd end up with if we split - not out of jealousy, but out of a sinking feeling that he'd just become more and more fanatical and extreme, and I don't want that to happen to him. I know that I balance him out a bit. He's less Bible-thumpy in front of other people when I'm around. As for what he does for me.... well, it's never dull, at least.

Sorry folks - back to the argument with Lion IRC, wich I am also enjoying. Carry on.

(P.S. - Oh, and my other purpose here is the pleasure I get out of conversing with freethinking people. Surely that's understandable.)

[Rum]

My purpose here is finding (and giving to him) enough food for thought to start making a difference in his thinking. I know it's a vain hope (the more time I spend here, the more I wonder what the hell I'm doing in this marriage), but I am just about heart-brokenly stressed out of my brain thinking how much better a man he could be. I laugh and cry in equal measure at the things he says re: religion and evolution, but in all seriousness, if you talk to him for five minutes without mentioning either of those topics, he's a fantastic guy. Then I meet non-theist men, and I feel so damn sad because I know I could be happier with someone like that, and in fact I could be happier with him if he'd just get over the god thing.

Frankly, I am truly depressed thinking of the kind of good little Christian girl he'd end up with if we split - not out of jealousy, but out of a sinking feeling that he'd just become more and more fanatical and extreme, and I don't want that to happen to him. I know that I balance him out a bit. He's less Bible-thumpy in front of other people when I'm around. As for what he does for me.... well, it's never dull, at least.

Sorry folks - back to the argument with Lion IRC, wich I am also enjoying. Carry on.

(P.S. - Oh, and my other purpose here is the pleasure I get out of conversing with freethinking people. Surely that's understandable.)

So sorry to hear it has come to this. I hope you manage to do whatever brings you the greatest happiness. I guess some people manage to live with a partner with very different views about life and others don't. One thing I am sure of though is that if either partner in a relationship has to repress their views for the sake of things working out - well they won't, sadly.

As to the OP, any god who punished me for using the brains he/she/it gave me, honestly, thoughtfully and after a great deal of searching over a lifetime and coming to the conclusions I have would be no god I wanted any part of.

[piscator]

you are deliberately missing the point of Ono's question, Aslan IRC

you have an opportunity here to actually engender some respect by taking the bull by the horns and giving the question a good working over

i think you can do better than wilting and offering evasive Wormtonguery

take your time, think about it, give it a good cut and show some mettle

what do you have to lose?

Hi Piscator,
Opportunity to engender some respect here? Thats pretty rich given the context of the wager - a person being challenged to hold fast to what they really do think rather than just ...going along to get along... "bending to peer pressure".
I never deliberately miss the point. I do unto others what I wish they would do for me - namely, take them at their word.
Lion (IRC)

don't understand syllogisms very well, do you?

please carry on without me then, and have a nice day!

[floppit]

Bolero, perhaps what really frightens him is that he is worshipping a god who he also believes will fry you for eternity for disbelief, if he loves you that must quite profoundly fuck with him on a daily basis.

If it was me I wouldn't attempt to argue it (but then I don't with believers - I have reason, they have faith = argument pointless waste of air); I'd tell him to live with it or question it, his choice. Perhaps even add in that even if you were to believe in a god, you wouldn't praise and worship one that tortures for eternity anyone unwilling to fake faith when they don't have it.

[Onomotopeia]

1. God is testing us for fitness in the after-life, and will only accept people into heaven who honestly follow the evidence where it leads (non-theism) rather than bending to peer pressure.
The God who doesnt exist is doing what?

Testing us for honesty and moral courage. Was it not clear enough? I mean it--would you like me to tell you more about God? Richard Carrier did a decent job of it in the earlier link, but I am always ready to spread the Non-Word.

2. If God doesn't exist, you don't lose anything either way.
Good old fashioned plagiarism. See Pascals Wager.

Kind of the point. My God is better than your God so I get to plug him into the same equation. Guess what? Different results. Indicates a flaw in the Wager. We'll get to that at the end.

3. If God exists, and you are a theist, you are consigned to oblivion.
Did I misread the challenge? There is a God. I act accordingly. How is that dishonest?

If you have sufficient evidence to believe in a God, and you honestly investigate other evidence and arguments, that's great! If, however, your beliefs bottom out with "faith," you should rethink. God doesn't like faith. Like, really doesn't like it. It's kind of a thing with Him.

4. If God exists, and you are a non-theist, you get eternal bliss!
Oh this just keeps on getting weirder and weirder. The God who, at point number 1 values honesty and truth and evidence-based actions, rewards the non-theist for what - asserting that there is no evidence of God at all?

He'll reward you for honesty and truth-seeking, yes. The balance of the evidence leads me to believe that no gods of any power or goodness (Christianity, Islam and Judaism for example) exist. If you actually have enough evidence to believe in Xenu, then you should do that--this God will totally hook you up. In fact, if you have that evidence, hook me up too. God will be mad at me if I don't follow up on all genuine leads.

These people "who honestly follow the evidence where it leads" yet say there is NO evidence arent going anywhere fast.

When did I say there was no evidence? I said the evidence lead to non-theism. If you have enough evidence to go the other way, please share it! God will only let me into heaven if I honestly follow the evidence.

St Peter is saying to them..."Heaven is just beyond those Pearly Gates" and they are saying "we don't believe you". It's a paradoxical double snake-bite. You only get into heaven if you refuse to accept "anecdotal evidence" and you can't enter heaven because you won't take someone elses word for it. God's Word.

Of course he would let them in. In fact, if you went to St. Elton John at the Pearly Gates and he said "guess what! There are cute puppies and 42 virgins for you beyond these gates!" and you believed him, he wouldn't let you in and you wouldn't get your puppies and virgins. Irrational beliefs = no admission. (It's St. Elton John, not St. Peter. God is generally a nice guy and would not condone a set of beliefs as silly or barbaric as the Old+New Testament.)

Also, God's Word? Pshaw. God did not write anything down because it would invalidate the test.

Bottom line, the Wager is really bad advice. There simply is no safe choice. The Hide-And-Seek God, the Christian God, the Lion-IRC-I-Don't-Care-What-You-Believe-As-Long-As-It-Smells-Like-God God, the Muslim God, and the Deist God all have exclusive beliefs about who does and does not get into the after-life. Believing in any one of them risks you going to hell (or oblivion) from multiple others. Believing in the god prevalent in your culture risks you a more than 50% chance of being wrong (since no God enjoys more than 50% of the believers).

The only way to get relative safety in your religious choice is to learn more about the choices, and using reason and evidence.

[Bolero]

Bottom line, the Wager is really bad advice. There simply is no safe choice. The Hide-And-Seek God, the Christian God, the Lion-IRC-I-Don't-Care-What-You-Believe-As-Long-As-It-Smells-Like-God God, the Muslim God, and the Deist God all have exclusive beliefs about who does and does not get into the after-life. Believing in any one of them risks you going to hell (or oblivion) from multiple others. Believing in the god prevalent in your culture risks you a more than 50% chance of being wrong (since no God enjoys more than 50% of the believers).

The only way to get relative safety in your religious choice is to learn more about the choices, and using reason and evidence.

Nicely summed up.

Edited for poor computer skills.

[Toontown]

A tiny ant threatens to have me stung to death by a giant five foot long monster ant if I don't believe the little ant is the Jesus ant.

I laughingly express doubt as to the existence of any giant five foot long monster ant. The ant responds, "But what if you're wrong?"

Oh my. I hadn't thought of that. What am I to do? There isn't much of a downside to believing the tiny ant is actually the Jesus ant. If it's not really the Jesus ant, nothing happens. Unless it then demands that I worship it. But if it is the Jesus ant and I don't believe, I get skewered by a giant five foot long monster ant. Trouble is, I have no idea how to make myself believe the ant is in fact the the hypothetical and totally nonsensical Jesus ant. I'm pretty sure the ant is attempting to impose a false belief system on me.

And that's not the only problem. The ant's argument can't possibly be valid. What's to prevent every Tom, Dick or Harry from forcing me to believe whatever nonsense they've dreamed up on pain of having me snuffed in various unpleasant ways by whatever horrid monster happens to pop into their heads?

I guess you just have to be brave and take a small risk now and then. You surely don't want people to find out that you scare easy. The probability that the ant really is the Jesus ant is pretty miniscule, isn't it. So it really makes no sense to allow myself to be bullied by the tiny creature, does it.

Look at it this way. Any conceivable "possibility" can be snatched out of the air and claimed to be true, with "faith" as the sole support. However, since there are a virtual infinity of "possibilities" that can be snatched out of the air, it follows that the probability of any randon air-snatched "possibility" actually being true is not significantly different from zero.

So I wouldn't worry about it. Because if I do worry about it, then logical consistency demands that I worry about every conceivable "possibility". And I ain't gonna do that. I have enough quite real possibilities to worry about.

[Epictetus]

...and I'm right? Hubby and I finished a recent argument about religion with him plaintively saying this (possibly as a segue into the subsequent "I love you and I don't want you to burn in hell for all eternity" makeout session).

Of course, I responded by pointing out that a "just in case" bet doesn't make up for a lack of evidence, and that belief can't be forced, but I was wondering ... I mean, have you ever had to respond to this? What did you say? Or what have you heard others say?

I usually tell such people that sure I could say I believe all that nonsense. But that's just it. I would just be saying it and not actually believing it. And as god is usually thought to be omniscient (he wouldn't be much of a god if he wasn't) he would see through the deception and know I was lying.

Also, what if I'm wrong in my choice of gods? That is, how do I know that Allah is the right choice? Or Jesus? Which of the world's religions is the "one true religion"? Which am I to choose? They can't all be right. This really matters, because two of the most prominent religions in the world teach the doctrine of hell.

At any rate, I don't believe in any god, and I find the whole Pascal Wager thing overly-dramatic and just downright silly. One should probably turn the question around and ask the devout "What if you're wrong? What if it turns out that you've wasted all those precious years believing a fiction?" That would be tragic, but I think it's actually the case...

[Friday]

A tiny ant threatens to have me stung to death by a giant five foot long monster ant if I don't believe the little ant is the Jesus ant.

I moosh the ant with my foot, and move on...

[hackenslash]

Some good repsonses. However; I like my response better:

I can't be wrong.

[camoguard]

I thought we were all atheists here as a prerequisite. I guess I was wrong.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...Of course, you are slightly more likely to burn in hell (if a deity exists) if you don't believe in God than if you do...

Why? What if there were a god who rewarded atheists for their intellectual integrity, and punished believers for their servility/gullibility?

[hackenslash]

...Of course, you are slightly more likely to burn in hell (if a deity exists) if you don't believe in God than if you do...

On what do you base this probability?

[Mr P]

It should be noted that Marcus Aurelius pre-dated Pascal by about 1600 years when he said;

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

Pascals wager was invalid the moment it was uttered.

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