Ban Ronald McDonald?

[Rum]

Except American parents are obviously unable to look after themselves, let alone their children, or obesity wouldn't be such a problem.
Let's factor in the over-exposure of fast food stores with advertising aimed at children, you have an ad which appeals to children, really appeals to children, and as they're walking down the street they see the company identified with that ad maybe four or five times a trip.
"Can we got to McDonald's?"
"Why can't we?"
"What if I behave?"
It isn't a one-off-thing either. McDonald's is chemically engineered to taste good, all that sugar plus the 'happy meal toys' mean that as a child you don't just get 'good food' but a present along with it. So, this place has 'good commercials', 'good food' and it gives you a 'free' present. You're gonna start liking this place. You're going to be conditioned to like McDonald's before you can tie your shoelaces.
Factor in the fact that a lot of families now have to be double-income households, meaning that often there's not a parent there to prepare dinner and when they come back from work they are often too tired to cook.
Factor in you're now looking at the third or fourth generation since McD's first came around and the 'arch' effect has had time to nestle in.

YAY Free Market! Nothing says 'liberty' like an obesity epidemic which can be directly linked to the fast food industry!

+1!

[Coito ergo sum]

Except American parents are obviously unable to look after themselves, let alone their children, or obesity wouldn't be such a problem.

Wouldn't that be an argument for strong limitations on the number of hours children are allowed to watch television?

Let's factor in the over-exposure of fast food stores with advertising aimed at children, you have an ad which appeals to children, really appeals to children, and as they're walking down the street they see the company identified with that ad maybe four or five times a trip.

Once again. Television/computer time is statistically on average up to 6 hours a day. Television watching time has coincided with the rise in obesity over the last 50 years, wherein t.v. watching time has gone up 40% and active play time has gone down markedly. Nobody disputes that fact. Similarly, in the last 30 years, the number of calories per day consumed by the average kid has gone up 8%.

Why is it that you folks are so quick to blame advertising, and so loathe to blame the number of hours of sedentary behavior, the lack of exercise, and the increase in calorie intake?

"Can we got to McDonald's?"

No.

"Why can't we?"

Any number of responses:

Because we brought lunch with us.
We're stopping at restaurant X instead.
We just ate and it's not time to eat yet.
Because I said so.
Because that food is not good for you, and you just had some recently.

"What if I behave?"

It's still not time to eat.
You just ate.
You just had McDonald's, BK, whatever, recently.
It's not good for you.
We're going to have dinner at dinner time.

It isn't a one-off-thing either. McDonald's is chemically engineered to taste good,

Oh, give me a break. All foods that we like to eat taste good. If you go to a restaurant, the food their is chemically engineered to taste good.

all that sugar

Yup. McDonald's is not something that is supposed to be eaten regularly. Everyone knows that. Big red flag: There are no vegetables, other than fried potatoes, associated with most meals there.

plus the 'happy meal toys' mean that as a child you don't just get 'good food' but a present along with it.

Another reason why it should be a rare treat.

So, this place has 'good commercials', 'good food' and it gives you a 'free' present. You're gonna start liking this place. You're going to be conditioned to like McDonald's before you can tie your shoelaces.

Like Chuck-E-Cheese and Dairy Queen. Tastes good - fun, exciting.

Factor in the fact that a lot of families now have to be double-income households, meaning that often there's not a parent there to prepare dinner and when they come back from work they are often too tired to cook.
Factor in you're now looking at the third or fourth generation since McD's first came around and the 'arch' effect has had time to nestle in.

YAY Free Market! Nothing says 'liberty' like an obesity epidemic which can be directly linked to the fast food industry!

Once again - the obesity epidemic is directly due to (a) a sedentary lifestyle overall - see 4 hours of t.v. and 2 hours of computer time every day for the average kid, and (b) an 8% increase in daily calorie intake on average in the last 30 years.

McDonalds and Burger King are not the only places that people eat, particularly kids. Most meals are still eaten at home. There is a dramatic increase in snacking at home - soft drinks (once doled out sparingly are now fed to kids like juice), potato chips, ice cream, candy, etc.

We all acknowledge the problem. However, what someone needs to explain to me is why so many people are willing to blame commercials with Ronald McDonald but are very much resistant to blaming the actual marked increase in calories per day coupled with the number of hours a day increase in television watching (40% increase since 1960). I mean is it that unclear that kids are becoming disgustingly fat because they sit on their fat asses 40% more than they used to and shovel in more food than they used to while doing it???? Is that something that is hard to believe????

[AshtonBlack]

To be fair to Maccy D's. They may be the biggest profile, but anyone remember Sunny Delight?
Direct marketing to pre-teens and had sales reaching just behind Pepsi and Coke. But it backfired. It was marketed as a "healthy" alternative to carbonated soft drinks. Till someone* pointed out that they were talking bollocks.
2% Juice, with the rest made up of sugar, water and additives.
But it took 5 fucking years for that greasy sludge to be off our kid's TV screens and all with no involvement by the government.
Oh and surprise surpise, it's only when sales fell, that proctor and gamble pulled it.

Now it's sold as SunnyD with 70% fruit juice with no artificial ingredients or added sugar.

* A biased consumer watchdog called the Food Commission. (That link is now to their magazine site.)
But I digress.

A question for Coito. If you believe that direct marketing to children has little effect on them or as a factor is dismissable, then why do corporation do it?

[Coito ergo sum]

Except American parents are obviously unable to look after themselves, let alone their children, or obesity wouldn't be such a problem.
Let's factor in the over-exposure of fast food stores with advertising aimed at children, you have an ad which appeals to children, really appeals to children, and as they're walking down the street they see the company identified with that ad maybe four or five times a trip.
"Can we got to McDonald's?"
"Why can't we?"
"What if I behave?"
It isn't a one-off-thing either. McDonald's is chemically engineered to taste good, all that sugar plus the 'happy meal toys' mean that as a child you don't just get 'good food' but a present along with it. So, this place has 'good commercials', 'good food' and it gives you a 'free' present. You're gonna start liking this place. You're going to be conditioned to like McDonald's before you can tie your shoelaces.
Factor in the fact that a lot of families now have to be double-income households, meaning that often there's not a parent there to prepare dinner and when they come back from work they are often too tired to cook.
Factor in you're now looking at the third or fourth generation since McD's first came around and the 'arch' effect has had time to nestle in.

YAY Free Market! Nothing says 'liberty' like an obesity epidemic which can be directly linked to the fast food industry!

+1!

And, what's the point of "yay free market?" The alternative is what? A controlled market that prescribes what we're allowed to eat and prevents us from eating and doing unhealthy things?

Free market allows sky diving, BASE jumping, bungee jumping, private airplane flying, pie eating contests, hot dog eating contests, giant burger eating contests, smoking citgarettes, smoking cigars, drinking alcohol, etc. - but since these things are dangerous and/or unhealthy, what do you think should be done about them?

Where did this desire come from among our liberal populace to have the State save us from ourselves?

[Trolldor]

Try again.
'1984' is not the only alternative to 'absolute free market'.

[AshtonBlack]

Except American parents are obviously unable to look after themselves, let alone their children, or obesity wouldn't be such a problem.
Let's factor in the over-exposure of fast food stores with advertising aimed at children, you have an ad which appeals to children, really appeals to children, and as they're walking down the street they see the company identified with that ad maybe four or five times a trip.
"Can we got to McDonald's?"
"Why can't we?"
"What if I behave?"
It isn't a one-off-thing either. McDonald's is chemically engineered to taste good, all that sugar plus the 'happy meal toys' mean that as a child you don't just get 'good food' but a present along with it. So, this place has 'good commercials', 'good food' and it gives you a 'free' present. You're gonna start liking this place. You're going to be conditioned to like McDonald's before you can tie your shoelaces.
Factor in the fact that a lot of families now have to be double-income households, meaning that often there's not a parent there to prepare dinner and when they come back from work they are often too tired to cook.
Factor in you're now looking at the third or fourth generation since McD's first came around and the 'arch' effect has had time to nestle in.

YAY Free Market! Nothing says 'liberty' like an obesity epidemic which can be directly linked to the fast food industry!

+1!

And, what's the point of "yay free market?" The alternative is what? A controlled market that prescribes what we're allowed to eat and prevents us from eating and doing unhealthy things?

Free market allows sky diving, BASE jumping, bungee jumping, private airplane flying, pie eating contests, hot dog eating contests, giant burger eating contests, smoking citgarettes, smoking cigars, drinking alcohol, etc. - but since these things are dangerous and/or unhealthy, what do you think should be done about them?

Where did this desire come from among our liberal populace to have the State save us from ourselves?

How many of those are advertised on Kids TV? If not why not? Solely profit motive or are there regulations about who can sky dive, or smoke?

[Rum]

Except American parents are obviously unable to look after themselves, let alone their children, or obesity wouldn't be such a problem.
Let's factor in the over-exposure of fast food stores with advertising aimed at children, you have an ad which appeals to children, really appeals to children, and as they're walking down the street they see the company identified with that ad maybe four or five times a trip.
"Can we got to McDonald's?"
"Why can't we?"
"What if I behave?"
It isn't a one-off-thing either. McDonald's is chemically engineered to taste good, all that sugar plus the 'happy meal toys' mean that as a child you don't just get 'good food' but a present along with it. So, this place has 'good commercials', 'good food' and it gives you a 'free' present. You're gonna start liking this place. You're going to be conditioned to like McDonald's before you can tie your shoelaces.
Factor in the fact that a lot of families now have to be double-income households, meaning that often there's not a parent there to prepare dinner and when they come back from work they are often too tired to cook.
Factor in you're now looking at the third or fourth generation since McD's first came around and the 'arch' effect has had time to nestle in.

YAY Free Market! Nothing says 'liberty' like an obesity epidemic which can be directly linked to the fast food industry!

+1!

And, what's the point of "yay free market?" The alternative is what? A controlled market that prescribes what we're allowed to eat and prevents us from eating and doing unhealthy things?

Free market allows sky diving, BASE jumping, bungee jumping, private airplane flying, pie eating contests, hot dog eating contests, giant burger eating contests, smoking citgarettes, smoking cigars, drinking alcohol, etc. - but since these things are dangerous and/or unhealthy, what do you think should be done about them?

Where did this desire come from among our liberal populace to have the State save us from ourselves?

As ever there is a balance to be struck. The state insists we use seat belts. There was a lot of resistance to it in some quarters and yet now we know thousands of lives have been saved internationally. Are you suggesting that people should be free not to use them? Or to drink and drive?

We protect our children in all sorts of ways using legislation. Some of it even works!

The state already has powers in most industrialised countries to intervene if parenting is inadequate. There is an argument to be made that allowing your child to become obese is tantamount to child abuse.

While it is probably, except in very extreme circumstances, unacceptable to remove a child from parents who are shortening its life by allowing it to sit in front of the TV all day and eat high fat food, I see no reason that it should not put legislative pressure, through taxation, rules about advertising and so on, to mould and influence the issues and people's behaviour.

[AshtonBlack]

Oh you can't do that Rum. Corporations have right too!!!

[Rum]

Oh you can't do that Rum. Corporations have right too!!!

Well currently they seem to have the right to fuck us good and proper as the mood takes them!

[AshtonBlack]

Oh you can't do that Rum. Corporations have right too!!!

Well currently they seem to have the right to fuck us good and proper as the mood takes them!

Hey it's the American Dream(TM) now exporting all over the world.

[Rum]

Oh you can't do that Rum. Corporations have right too!!!

Well currently they seem to have the right to fuck us good and proper as the mood takes them!

Hey it's the American Dream(TM) now exporting all over the world.

Yep, including Cadbury land, just recently.

I really think the hegemony of American style capitalism is 1. Not truly understood in America and 2. at least part of the reason for the backlash and 'ingratitude' of some of our recently 'liberated' middle-eastern brothers and sisters.

[AshtonBlack]

Oh you can't do that Rum. Corporations have right too!!!

Well currently they seem to have the right to fuck us good and proper as the mood takes them!

Hey it's the American Dream(TM) now exporting all over the world.

Yep, including Cadbury land, just recently.

I really think the hegemony of American style capitalism is 1. Not truly understood in America and 2. at least part of the reason for the backlash and 'ingratitude' of some of our recently 'liberated' middle-eastern brothers and sisters.

Indeed and our reputation, as a nation, got pinned to that.
But anyway... This is most definitely ending up as a libertarian/socialist debate. So I'm done.

[RuleBritannia]

Oh you can't do that Rum. Corporations have right too!!!

Well currently they seem to have the right to fuck us good and proper as the mood takes them!

Hey it's the American Dream(TM) now exporting all over the world.

Yep, including Cadbury land, just recently.

I really think the hegemony of American style capitalism is 1. Not truly understood in America and 2. at least part of the reason for the backlash and 'ingratitude' of some of our recently 'liberated' middle-eastern brothers and sisters.

Indeed and our reputation, as a nation, got pinned to that.
But anyway... This is most definitely ending up as a libertarian/socialist debate. So I'm done.

Libertarians are socialists.

[Tigger]

I voted ban him. You know why?
Look:

What a cunt.

[AshtonBlack]

Libertarians are socialists.

I suppose, in a literal sense, anyone who lives in society is a socialist.

I will rephrase:

This is becoming a propertarian minarchist v liberal socialist philosophical debate. I'm done.