Do you craft/choose your thoughts before you have them?

[SpeedOfSound]

Does anyone have a good example of crafting a thought?

Maybe if you chose to solve a particular problem then the thought the finally led you to the solution might be said to have been crafted.

That's an example. But then that is not the norm. Most of my thoughts spill out of a place where it seems I am not.

So that still leaves me confused about what crafting would be all about. Are there other ways we craft thoughts?

Do we always have to craft them with other thoughts?

Your post caused some crafting in me. If I murder in the next 24 it's gonna be on you.

[jamest]

There are flaws inherent within this thread, I think, which are leading to a false conclusion...

When we define the 'self', everyone assumes that the self is the entity that one can attribute qualia/experiences to, such as bodily form, thoughts and associated feelings. That is, nearly everyone identifies the self as that entity which is experienced.
So, does the experienced self craft its own thoughts? No, since the experienced self is an effect of 'crafting'. The experienced self is the identity discerned from the totality of its experiences.

What we are - our true identity - transcends what is observed of ourselves. If one was speaking of our true identity as 'the brain', for instance, one would still say that essentially 'we' do craft our own thoughts because ultimately, 'we' are the brain. Likewise, an idealist might say something along the lines of the self being integral to whatever it is that 'crafts' and 'observes' experience (the experiencER). So, ultimately, whatever we really are, 'we' still do actually craft our thoughts/sensations/feelings... even if we (the experienced self) have no apparent knowledge of how this is being done.

No idealist or materialist should identify itself with being an experienced entity. Consequently, all answers to the question posed at the start of this thread, should really be "Yes, ultimately, we do craft our own thoughts".

[SpeedOfSound]

Does anyone have a good example of crafting a thought?

Insofar as 'crafting' implies volition, no I don't have any examples. I'm not going to rule out that others may, though. That was pretty much what the OP was about. Finding out whether or not others do, I mean.

I'm insomniac at 3am and I'm reading the Baars book and crafting some models for consciousness. That is worthy of the term crafting. I am using giant sheets of paper on huge 8X3 tables and whiteboards and about 600 colored pencils and pens.

I'll try and describe some of the thought processes if I can. But I had better sleep more first.

[GrahamH]

There are flaws inherent within this thread, I think, which are leading to a false conclusion...

When we define the 'self', everyone assumes that the self is the entity that one can attribute qualia/experiences to, such as bodily form, thoughts and associated feelings. That is, nearly everyone identifies the self as that entity which is experienced.
So, does the experienced self craft its own thoughts? No, since the experienced self is an effect of 'crafting'. The experienced self is the identity discerned from the totality of its experiences.

What we are - our true identity - transcends what is observed of ourselves. If one was speaking of our true identity as 'the brain', for instance, one would still say that essentially 'we' do craft our own thoughts because ultimately, 'we' are the brain. Likewise, an idealist might say something along the lines of the self being integral to whatever it is that 'crafts' and 'observes' experience (the experiencER). So, ultimately, whatever we really are, 'we' still do actually craft our thoughts/sensations/feelings... even if we (the experienced self) have no apparent knowledge of how this is being done.

No idealist or materialist should identify itself with being an experienced entity. Consequently, all answers to the question posed at the start of this thread, should really be "Yes, ultimately, we do craft our own thoughts".

Good post James! we should bring this back to the other thread.

[charlou]

Are there other ways we craft thoughts?

Does artistic creativity count? Poetry, fictional writing, music, architectural design, for example ...

[GrahamH]

Are there other ways we craft thoughts?

Does artistic creativity count? Poetry, fictional writing, music, architectural design, for example ...

How much can you say about how such thoughts are crafted? It is interesting to think about.
Writing a story seems more like editorial selection of ideas that pop up than forming those pop-up thoughts.

As an aside, it brings to mind (!) a Biblical reference -

In the beginning was the word..
and the word had just popped up in the mind of the FSM, and the FSM said 'Hey, that's a cool idea!'
From what we know of minds, creativity and 'thought processes' any claim of ex nihilo creation of ideas seems completely unjustified to me.

[FBM]

There are flaws inherent within this thread, I think, which are leading to a false conclusion...No idealist or materialist should identify itself with being an experienced entity. Consequently, all answers to the question posed at the start of this thread, should really be "Yes, ultimately, we do craft our own thoughts".

Good post James! we should bring this back to the other thread.

While I agree with practically everything you said, the question wasn't about whether or not an agent crafts his/her own thoughts. It was about whether or not thoughts are chosen and/or composed before they appear in the thought stream. Yes, that could lead to subsequent investigation into selfhood, but whether the self is ultimately an entity or a convenient fiction is a different question. The thrust of the OP was to elicit statements regarding whether or not, upon close observation, thinking can be accurately described as volitional, regardless of what you consider the self to be or not be. It does seem to me that both selfhood (in an absolute sense) and volition disappear into the unconscious, leaving us with only conventional 'truths' regarding selves and volition, rather than Truths about them.

That's probably not much clearer, but I'm still at the office and itching to gtfo of here before more work comes along...

[jamest]

While I agree with practically everything you said, the question wasn't about whether or not an agent crafts his/her own thoughts.

You explicitly used the word 'craft' in the title of your thread - in conjunction with the word 'choose'!

It was about whether or not thoughts are chosen and/or composed before they appear in the thought stream.

If one is responsible for choosing or composing the words that they use, then they are 'crafting' sentences/language.

Yes, that could lead to subsequent investigation into selfhood, but whether the self is ultimately an entity or a convenient fiction is a different question.

Actually, the question goes right to the heart of the matter, since the answer to the posed question depends upon whether you are asking us if a fictional character chooses its own thoughts, or the essence behind that character, does so. Clearly, fictional characters cannot choose or create anything, whereas the essence behind that character (whether that be brain, God, or red jelly) must be choosing/creating the thoughts that are evident within consciousness.

The answer to your question has a straightforward yes or no response, dependent upon which 'I' you are talking about.

[SpeedOfSound]

Are there other ways we craft thoughts?

Does artistic creativity count? Poetry, fictional writing, music, architectural design, for example ...

Yes. Very much. I'm trying to tease apart some of the kinds of thinking we do. I think FBM wants this too. It's hard to think and then capture it after the fact without screwing up the picture.

[FBM]

While I agree with practically everything you said, the question wasn't about whether or not an agent crafts his/her own thoughts.

You explicitly used the word 'craft' in the title of your thread - in conjunction with the word 'choose'!

It was about whether or not thoughts are chosen and/or composed before they appear in the thought stream.

If one is responsible for choosing or composing the words that they use, then they are 'crafting' sentences/language.

Yes, that could lead to subsequent investigation into selfhood, but whether the self is ultimately an entity or a convenient fiction is a different question.

Actually, the question goes right to the heart of the matter, since the answer to the posed question depends upon whether you are asking us if a fictional character chooses its own thoughts, or the essence behind that character, does so. Clearly, fictional characters cannot choose or create anything, whereas the essence behind that character (whether that be brain, God, or red jelly) must be choosing/creating the thoughts that are evident within consciousness.

The answer to your question has a straightforward yes or no response, dependent upon which 'I' you are talking about.

OK.