Pope apologizes - and does nothing else

[Conny]

nobody replied to this on another thread so i will repost it here:

This topic (very much discussed in the news here) has me wondering. What is it about some men who like to abuse children? do other large apes do anything similar to this? I know bonobos copulate all the time, do chimps? gorillas? orang-utans? with very young members? and it seems to be predominantly common of older boys doing this to younger boys in some schools.... A "power" or "status" thing?

Aside- Girls can be at times cruel and catty, but while growing up i never ever heard of older girls sexually abusing younger ones. I have heard of some nuns hitting and spanking each other and children, but there was never a sexual connotation to that.

[Martok]

Until the Church stops protecting those priests the pope's apology is rather hollow.

[Lion IRC]

Until then, don't anybody think child abuse is something which only ever happened (happens) in Catholic churches/schools.

Who thought that?

Who thought that indeed.

Systemic abuse and coverups of child abuse within the church just happens to be is the topic.

Lion (IRC)

[JimC]

Until then, don't anybody think child abuse is something which only ever happened (happens) in Catholic churches/schools.

Who thought that?

Who thought that indeed.

Systemic abuse and coverups of child abuse within the church just happens to be is the topic.

Lion (IRC)

Incorrect - the OP was quite specifically about the Pope's wishy-washy apology. That is not to say that other examples could not be introduced as a side-issue in the thread, but, IMO, you were using your examples to take the heat off systematic abuse and systematic cover-ups within a powerful christian organisation.

[Lion IRC]

My defense of the church?
My argument is full of holes and incorrect?
My suggestion that the catholic church is being scapegoated is wholly baseless?
Lion IRC wants to take the heat off systematic abuse and systematic cover-ups?

Whatever criticism is levelled at the heirarchy of the catholic church is equally valid for those in charge of every other situation given above - including parents.

* Lack of vigilance
* Skepticism of victims
* Couldn't happen here culture
* Naïve/incompetent recruitment and screening of job applicants (visiting neighbors)
* Cover-ups and white washing by people who could have prevented it

I have never seen any bible verses used to mitigate or justify the wrongs done by pedophiles hiding in churches. (Pedophiles who claim they were "born that way") Nor have I seen any church heirarchy explain how God is better served by a cover-up.
There is a lot more "reaping what you sow" ahead for church leaders.
Lion (IRC)

If any pedophile had something from scripture which they thought would mitigate what they did then that SAME scripture would still be there today.

Let them come forward and speak fearlessly to explain how they thought it was OK.

Same with any bishops who knew or suspected and did nothing or covered up. Let them stand up in the pulpit and PREACH the scripture upon which they based their actions.

If an accused priest was innocent they should have been PUBLICLY defended and allowed to remain in their position. If they were thought to be under suspicion they should have voluntarily made PUBLIC the accusation and demanded that they be excused from duty until the matter was completely resolved. Circumstances which enabled (true or false) accusations to be made COULD have been prevented.

A true priest who wanted to protect their child parishioners, their Church, their reputation could very easily say, No - I refuse to be in any situation where there is no other adult witness present.

In the bible a man named Nicodemus once tried to secretly visit Jesus at night. What Jesus then said about things done in the darkness and not covering things up and the power of LIGHTING hidden things up for all to see was AMAZING. Here was a clear warning to those who do not practice what they preach.

Lion (IRC)

[virphen]

Lion, don't the Catholic Church claim to provide moral and spiritual leadership?

If they're no better than any other organisation... to paraphrase Stephen Fry, what are they for?

[Lion IRC]

Lion, don't the Catholic Church claim to provide moral and spiritual leadership?

If they're no better than any other organisation... to paraphrase Stephen Fry, what are they for?

Hi Virphen,
Dont the scouts claim to provide wholesome activities for young people?
Dont the police claim to uphold and defend the law?
Don't school teachers act in loco parentis?
Don't hospitals claim to be places where you get help?

My main points here are that
1) The Catholic church is reaping what it sowed - GOOD! Cut hard and cut deep and any catholic who says otherwise is part of the problem.
2) Pedophiles in the RCC are NOT even remotely close to being the critical mass of child abuse by those who disguise themselves as teachers, priests, doctors, police officers, scout masters, free-thinking defenders of liberty of expression/art/sexual freedom, etc.
3) There is much hypocrisy and danger of complacent scape-goating in the undue focus on the catholic church. I will always use this topic as a way to highlight how big the problem REALLY is.

Lion (IRC)
PS - JimC - you are entitled to your "opinion" that I am merely trying to "take the heat off systematic abuse and systematic cover-ups " but in MY opinion you are both wrong and discourteous to say so. How about we make a deal? How about I accept you at your word and you extend me the same humanist ethic.

[virphen]

Hi Virphen,
Dont the scouts claim to provide wholesome activities for young people?
Dont the police claim to uphold and defend the law?
Don't school teachers act in loco parentis?
Don't hospitals claim to be places where you get help?

A hospital deliberately infecting people with diseases would be a great comparison to the Catholic Church covering up the abuses of its clergy and facilitating their transfer to new parishes where they can continue offending .

The rest just misses the point.

[Lion IRC]

Hi Virphen,

The point? Are you kidding?

Did you see how quickly people rush in to say...."oh Lion, please dont mention how pedophiles sneak their way into occupations where they can exploit the trust of children - you're just trying to disrupt our topic...you must be an RCC spin doctor...what does child abuse have to do with anything..."

The topic is right on the mark. ...."and does nothing else" It seems nobody wants to discuss anything else.

I have had my say (thankyou rationalia). You can go back to your anti-Ratzinger, churches cause pedophilia, thread now.

Lion (IRC)

[virphen]

No I'm not kidding.

I wouldn't agree with anyone who said the church had a monopoly on people entering it to abuse the trust that the organisation inspires.

However, the point is that those organisations do not claim some sort of divine mandate to be the earthly representatives of all that is holy. And that is a big fucking difference.

If said earthly representatives turn out to be just as dirty and corrupt as everyone else, if not more so... why not just get rid of the fuckers, from the Pope who led the cover-up down to every other bullshit-peddling cleric? Even if you believe, they're clearly no better than anyone else.

[charlou]

Hi Virphen,

The point? Are you kidding?

Did you see how quickly people rush in to say...."oh Lion, please dont mention how pedophiles sneak their way into occupations where they can exploit the trust of children - you're just trying to disrupt our topic...you must be an RCC spin doctor...what does child abuse have to do with anything..."

The topic is right on the mark. ...."and does nothing else" It seems nobody wants to discuss anything else.

I have had my say (thankyou rationalia). You can go back to your anti-Ratzinger, churches cause pedophilia, thread now.

Lion (IRC)

I agree with you that pedophillia and sexual issues and hangups in society generally have broader and deeper roots and manifestations than described in the article in the OP ... socially, sex and manipulation in all its forms go hand in hand ...

btw, note how ratzinger himself thinks he can fool us into believing it's solely an Irish clergy problem ...

[Trolldor]

Read in the paper today that dear Pope ignored a psychologists recommendation to have a pedophile priest locked down and put under permanent observation. Thanks to the dear pope's retardation this same priest went and abused more young boys.
Lion, shut up, really. The Catholic church is one of the largest organisations on the planet, an organisation that plays from a position of authority and with morality, who's supposed penultimate authority next to God not only covered up pedophilia but actively facilitated it when he ignored recommendations from psychologists that certain priest shouldn't be allowed to serve and should be put under constant surveillance. He got furious at the man who admitted that the Catholic Church had, as policy, a system to protect priests.
No, really, we should just place it with all the rest. All those other multi-billion dollar organisations who facilitate pedophiles under the guise of being God's moral voice on Earth.

Oh, wait.

[AshtonBlack]

Lion,

I understand that a certain % of any given population/organisation will be paedophiles. I don't have the stats to hand, but one would guess its fairly uncommon.
So then, in most western democracies, we have laws and clinical psychiatry to attempt to "contain and cure" those people.

In THIS CASE, it has been proven that members of the same organisation covered up and didn't use the law, to protect the children, but used church law to protect it's own reputation.

This is why it is singled out as a group, not because of the acts themselves, which are an individual responsibility under the law but being how those individuals were dealt within their group.

If you have the link to the news stories or similar in which another organisation has been accused of coving up paedophilia at this level and over so many years, then I'd be glad to read it and vent my spleen with just as much gusto at that organisation as I do with the RCC.

[owtth]

Lion,

I understand that a certain % of any given population/organisation will be paedophiles. I don't have the stats to hand, but one would guess its fairly uncommon.
So then, in most western democracies, we have laws and clinical psychiatry to attempt to "contain and cure" those people.

In THIS CASE, it has been proven that members of the same organisation covered up and didn't use the law, to protect the children, but used church law to protect it's own reputation.

This is why it is singled out as a group, not because of the acts themselves, which are an individual responsibility under the law but being how those individuals were dealt within their group.

If you have the link to the news stories or similar in which another organisation has been accused of coving up paedophilia at this level and over so many years, then I'd be glad to read it and vent my spleen with just as much gusto at that organisation as I do with the RCC.

+1
This is not about turning a blind eye or negligence, it's about wilful facilitation. This pope was directly responsible for formulating the Vatican's response to child abuse and he has accepted no responsibility for the outcome.

[Animavore]

Yeah I don't see why you're not getting this Lion.

Dont the scouts claim to provide wholesome activities for young people?
Dont the police claim to uphold and defend the law?
Don't school teachers act in loco parentis?
Don't hospitals claim to be places where you get help?

If any of these organisations deliberately tried to cover up the abuse the whole organisation is implicit. The priests all knew what was happening and did nothing. If the Scouts did it their reputation would be in ruins and people would take their children out. That's what many are beginning to do in Ireland and I' delighted to be honest. No young people are going to mass. Their coffers are running dry and their opinions becoming irrelevant. Let it starve I say.