On treeness of Oak1, and other things

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Little Idiot
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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by Little Idiot » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:54 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote: No thanks, you stick to other peoples ideas, I am able to ask my own questions, thanks.
Yes, the survival of the individual helps the evolution. But there is tremendous waste of resources in competition for mating. Logical non-subjective mating program would rapidly advance a species, and make far more evolutionary sense. Again, you have provided zero evidence to suport a claim that subjective experience helps evolutionary success, therefore in the scientific, physicalist model we should not have subjective experience, but we do.
Therefore the physicalist model can not explain the empirical facts.
Therefore the physicalist model is flawed and if it can not explain the empirical facts it is falsified.
Trust me. You NEED to read some books before you start spouting stuff about evolution and the biological role of consciousness. Your own thinking has got you to this place and this place is called Fail.
Well your blind assertion does jack shit to get me out of it.
Stop asserting the shit, and start explaining, justifying, arguing.

I am putting forward the attack only semi-seriously, but if you are to respond, at least put a case forward...
pleeese?
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Little Idiot
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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by Little Idiot » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:59 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:Ok Little Idiot, I want to see if I'm following you here.

There is consciousness. Within consciousness there exist lumps of meat like me that are similar to computers in that like computers which are unaware they are running
Microsoft Windows, the lump of meat <me>, is unaware that it's running a "program" called mind, which is in fact aware.

--am I close?
No.
Sorry.

I can explain, if you like, how my model works.

The body and sense organs and brain are obviously physical. (SD pay attention to that)
You are not these things; if I ask what are you?
What do you answer?

You are right that these (lumps of meat) things occur within consciousness. But you are wrong where you say you are the lump of meat, hence the question 'what are you?'
Offer an answer if you can, or invite me to continue and tell you what I think you are if you prefer.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by SpeedOfSound » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:06 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote: Animals and birds cooperate, with no theory of mind.
Where did you get this particular piece of misinformation?
That they cooperate or that they have no thory of mind?
That they have no TOM.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by GrahamH » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:46 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote: Animals and birds cooperate, with no theory of mind.
Where did you get this particular piece of misinformation?
That they cooperate or that they have no theory of mind?
LI,

The term 'theory of mind' is open to a range of interpretation, so I can't say you are actually wrong to suggest that 'animals and birds cooperate with no theory of mind'. However, 'theory of mind is not a 'cognitive theory'. It isn't science. It is the ability to read another's intentions. I'm using the term with that basic meaning. Dogs can read the intentions of other dogs, and people. This seems to be prevalent in animals, more so the more social the species.

So I disagree with you. Birds and animals that cooperate probably have some degree of theory of mind.

For Zombies to cooperate like humans do they would need a theory of mind, both for those they interact with, and themselves.

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by Little Idiot » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:04 pm

But you do agree zombie could cooperate, right?
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by GrahamH » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:17 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Evolution isn't about survival of the species. Read 'The Selfish Gene'.
No thanks, you stick to other peoples ideas, I am able to ask my own questions, thanks.
Yes, the survival of the individual helps the evolution. But there is tremendous waste of resources in competition for mating. Logical non-subjective mating program would rapidly advance a species, and make far more evolutionary sense. Again, you have provided zero evidence to suport a claim that subjective experience helps evolutionary success, therefore in the scientific, physicalist model we should not have subjective experience, but we do.
Therefore the physicalist model can not explain the empirical facts.
Therefore the physicalist model is flawed and if it can not explain the empirical facts it is falsified.
You can ask and answer all the questions you need to 'know' huh?

I suppose it's a time-saver to skip over all that shoulders of giants stuff and empirical enquiry.

The odd thing is that your posts here seem to borrow from the ideas of others, rather heavily at times. Hmm.

Are you a very selective reader, just reading things that support your ideas?

Seriously, The Selfish Gene is a a very thought provoking book, it is worth your time to read it.

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by GrahamH » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:19 pm

Little Idiot wrote:But you do agree zombie could cooperate, right?
No. I think it would need a theory of mind. How can you cooperate with others if you have no information about their intentions and likely responses?
ToM is necessary for playing by the rules of the social game. You have to know the other player will kick the ball the right way if you pass it to him.
Last edited by GrahamH on Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by GrahamH » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:22 pm

How do you propose a zombie manages to cooperate?
Suppose the zombie encounters some food and reactively collects some (it has spare food).
Later it encounters another zombie. How does our zombie decide how to interact?

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by SpeedOfSound » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:54 pm

Little Idiot wrote:But you do agree zombie could cooperate, right?
I can't believe we are having this fucking conversation.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by GrahamH » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:59 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:But you do agree zombie could cooperate, right?
I can't believe we are having this fucking conversation.
Damn, I can't believe I fell for the 'follow the zombie' decoy.

Let's get back on topic.

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by SpeedOfSound » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:29 pm

GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:But you do agree zombie could cooperate, right?
I can't believe we are having this fucking conversation.
Damn, I can't believe I fell for the 'follow the zombie' decoy.

Let's get back on topic.
You have to be careful with the Woofull. They lead you down there strange little path.

Theory of mind has a misleading name. Should be called the Theory the Theory of Mind. Squirrels have to have TOM to steal acorns. Any animal with some cortex has it. It is the reading of intent of other animates. It starts developing very early and is not conceptual but is learned in the way one learns to walk. Babies seem to have it down between 3 and 12 months old. Most animals get it a hell of lot earlier.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by GrahamH » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:39 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:But you do agree zombie could cooperate, right?
I can't believe we are having this fucking conversation.
Damn, I can't believe I fell for the 'follow the zombie' decoy.

Let's get back on topic.
You have to be careful with the Woofull. They lead you down there strange little path.

Theory of mind has a misleading name. Should be called the Theory the Theory of Mind. Squirrels have to have TOM to steal acorns. Any animal with some cortex has it. It is the reading of intent of other animates. It starts developing very early and is not conceptual but is learned in the way one learns to walk. Babies seem to have it down between 3 and 12 months old. Most animals get it a hell of lot earlier.
One criticism of studies into animal ToM is that learned responses might be mistaken form ToM. Hence the squirrel might steal the acorn by waiting for the other squirrel to leave. Not because it has ToM for the other squirrel, but because it has learned an association between other squirrels present when taking acorns and getting it's tail kicked.

I'm not quite sure if that is a reasonable objection, or if the learned response is exactly what ToM amounts to in humans as well. The difference being we get to analyse it after the fact with our fancy language skills.

I keep coming back to "It's all pattern recognition".

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by SpeedOfSound » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:54 pm

GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:But you do agree zombie could cooperate, right?
I can't believe we are having this fucking conversation.
Damn, I can't believe I fell for the 'follow the zombie' decoy.

Let's get back on topic.
You have to be careful with the Woofull. They lead you down there strange little path.

Theory of mind has a misleading name. Should be called the Theory the Theory of Mind. Squirrels have to have TOM to steal acorns. Any animal with some cortex has it. It is the reading of intent of other animates. It starts developing very early and is not conceptual but is learned in the way one learns to walk. Babies seem to have it down between 3 and 12 months old. Most animals get it a hell of lot earlier.
One criticism of studies into animal ToM is that learned responses might be mistaken form ToM. Hence the squirrel might steal the acorn by waiting for the other squirrel to leave. Not because it has ToM for the other squirrel, but because it has learned an association between other squirrels present when taking acorns and getting it's tail kicked.

I'm not quite sure if that is a reasonable objection, or if the learned response is exactly what ToM amounts to in humans as well. The difference being we get to analyse it after the fact with our fancy language skills.

I keep coming back to "It's all pattern recognition".
It has simple origins. Watching where the eyes of the other are looking. Our, us and animals, primary source of information about other conscious beings comes from observation of alerting behavior. I am guessing that play behavior is very important.

How does your dog know that you are playing with it and not trying to fight it?
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:59 pm

Little Idiot,
or invite me to continue and tell you what I think you are if you prefer.
Of course, and as simply as is possible please.
I was given a year of free milkshakes once. The year passed and I hadn’t bothered to get even one.

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Re: On treeness of Oak1, and other things

Post by Little Idiot » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:15 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:Little Idiot,
or invite me to continue and tell you what I think you are if you prefer.
Of course, and as simply as is possible please.
My question 'what am I?' is a more modern version of the classic 'who am I?'
It does not pre-suppose an individual personality, however.

The answer;
Am I the body - no; If I sever large pieces of body, my sense of individual identity, individuality, 'self' is not reduced.
Am I the thoughts, feelings and emotions - no; all these things come and go while 'I' am the same.
Am I the mind - yes! I am that awareness which 'has' the thoughts, feelings and emotions, I am the knower of them, but I am not them.

So 'I' am the mind.

What ever I experience or know, be it as thought, feeling, emotion, knowledge or experience I know as content of the mind.
Even the experience of the physical world can, by analysis, be considered as mental experience. There is no knowledge or experience available other than as content of the mind.

Few would argue against the case that what we experience of the physical is experienced as mental content, we can not claim knowledge of the outside world, only of 'our mental copy of it.'

Some would argue that we experience a mental copy of a physical world, based on parsomony and objective experience.

If we each experience our own mental representation of the objective world, then a group sharing an objective experience are doing nothing of the sort, they are each experiencing a subjective experience, with a large degree of agreement between them; so-called 'objective experience' is only inter-subjective agreement. In a group, no-one member knows other than his or her own subjective experience, each of which is a mental experience; a group sharing a so-called objective experience of a tree are only experiencing a collection of subjective experiences, no one member, nor all members together experience anything beyond the mental.
Objective experience provides no evidence of an experience beyond mental. However it does show agreement between the subjective mental experiences, there is a common element, but no evidence of a non-mental element.

There is some common source of the experience (say a 'real tree') which we each form a subjective representation of.
However this 'real tree' must interact with the minds of each individual in order to be experienced by each individual.

Since either
1 only the mental can interact with the mind
or
2 we have duality of mental and non-mental which can interact.

If duality is a flawed metaphysic, then only the mental can interact with mind, this ''real tree' is a mental object.

All we ever experience of the world is a mental representation. We have a foundation (above) to show how all physical objects (as opposed to the experience of the objects) are mental.

Have we any foundation to show the world is not mental, to show why there needs to be any thing of any other nature there to cause our mental experience?
Do we have any evidence to suggest the physical world we experience is not infact mental in its real nature, and is mental appearing in our experience as physical?

I have suggested we do not, and can not have evidence for anything other than a mental world. I asked for such evidence many times, but never recieved any.
Do you, Sean, know of any compelling reason to suppose a non-mental 'real tree' that causes out mental experience, or do you wish to dispute that our experience is a mental representation?

Maybe you agree that we do not and can not know that there is a non-mental world causing our experience.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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