Without evil there'd be no good ...

[LaMont Cranston]

Gee, guys, I have to differ with some of you about this. From the way that we, as human beings, perceive the world, there are dichotomies. If you can conceive of one side of the dichotomy (i.e. good), you must be able to conceive of the other side of the dichotomy (i.e. evil). Maybe of you can turn off your minds...or whatever it is that you do...and just conceive of one side of the dichotomy, but, so far in life, I have not met or heard about anybody who can do this.

If all human beings were, say, six feet tall, then the dichotomy of tall and short might not exist, at least when applied to humans. Of course, as soon as you stood next to a tree or a building that was over six feet tall, you would notice that the building is taller than the human or the dog is shorter. I am not saying that this is good or bad. What I am saying is that this is a description of the way that we perceive our lives.

I notice that Rum has a list of so-called false polarities because of the way that human minds tend to order things. Yes, we are humans. We do have minds. If anybody knows of any way around this, let's hear about it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Gee, guys, I have to differ with some of you about this. From the way that we, as human beings, perceive the world, there are dichotomies. If you can conceive of one side of the dichotomy (i.e. good), you must be able to conceive of the other side of the dichotomy (i.e. evil). Maybe of you can turn off your minds...or whatever it is that you do...and just conceive of one side of the dichotomy, but, so far in life, I have not met or heard about anybody who can do this.

If all human beings were, say, six feet tall, then the dichotomy of tall and short might not exist, at least when applied to humans. Of course, as soon as you stood next to a tree or a building that was over six feet tall, you would notice that the building is taller than the human or the dog is shorter. I am not saying that this is good or bad. What I am saying is that this is a description of the way that we perceive our lives.

I notice that Rum has a list of so-called false polarities because of the way that human minds tend to order things. Yes, we are humans. We do have minds. If anybody knows of any way around this, let's hear about it.

"Six foot" is an objective measure. "happy" and "sad" aren't. One man's evil is another man's good, no "black and white" there.

[RuleBritannia]

Good and evil are just subjective labels we give to actions.

[macdoc]

"Pleasure and pain" as Charlou mentioned, "are a sensory/neurological thing, not some metaphysical/philosophical thing." and "good" and "evil" smack of ontological nonsense.

sort of a melange there

Pleasure and pain are indeed physio and also as yin yang one contains elements of the other

this symbol is not without merit as a short form philosophical approach


Human perception is based on differentiation....take that into account before tossing the baby out with the bathwater....since we're using homilies...
it's not particularly trite to acknowledge that aspect of existence and reality as without opposites ...and one defines the other...and contrasts there are no gradients to deal with...

Yin yang and other opposites set the ends of the spectrum - does not preclude grayscales and colour scales

as to the good and evil
subjective crap indeed...

[Feck]

Dunno I like food before I starved myself .. I don't think I like food more now BECAUSE I know what a month without, or 6months living on rice , feels like
And as far as the that EVIL and pain are needed so you can appreciate not being in pain or hurting I never had to kick a dog so It enjoyed a cuddle !
This whole Idea of PAIN is needed so we can appreciate pleasure goes into the same sewer of verbiage as ALL meta_ physics IMO .

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Dunno I like food before I starved myself .. I don't think I like food more now BECAUSE I know what a month without, or 6months living on rice , feels like
And as far as the that EVIL and pain are needed so you can appreciate not being in pain or hurting I never had to kick a dog so It enjoyed a cuddle !
This whole Idea of PAIN is needed so we can appreciate pleasure goes into the same sewer of verbiage as ALL meta_ physics IMO .

The either-or thing was created to explain why "God let's pain happen". As long we're stuck that religious apologetic hogwash we'll continue to hear about it.

[LaMont Cranston]

Feck, You can and do know of both pleasure and pain. That's just a description of the way things are. Most people greatly prefer that which they perceive as pleasurable over that which is painful. The fact that you know of these things doesn't mean that it is necessary for you to have equal amounts of both. From what I can tell, some people have much more pleasure in their lives than they do pain, and vice versa. You and I are conscious enough to know that kicking a dog would not produce pleasurable results, so we don't do that. Being a rational human being can have individuals be the kind of people who make choices that take us away from less painful/bad decisions and in the direction of more pleasurable/good decisions.

I realize that we are talking about subjective experiences, but if you can tell us how we can eliminate subjectivity from our lives, let's hear about it.

[Feck]

Dunno I like food before I starved myself .. I don't think I like food more now BECAUSE I know what a month without, or 6months living on rice , feels like
And as far as the that EVIL and pain are needed so you can appreciate not being in pain or hurting I never had to kick a dog so It enjoyed a cuddle !
This whole Idea of PAIN is needed so we can appreciate pleasure goes into the same sewer of verbiage as ALL meta_ physics IMO .

The either-or thing was created to explain why "God let's pain happen". As long we're stuck that religious apologetic hogwash we'll continue to hear about it.

YES! it goes in the land- fill with concepts like "the dignity of suffering " Their God maybe thinks he is Dominant but I am NOT submissive !!!


LaMont did you read my post ? I DO NOT ENJOY FOOD NOW MORE THAN I DID BEFORE I STARVED !!! ... please do not apply "concepts " that may be all well and good if we are talking about Silly- osophy , to the real world .

[LaMont Cranston]

Gawdzilla and RuleBritannia, Yes, 'six foot' is an objective measure, and many other things (i.e. happy and sad) are not. However, they are real experiences for us, and, more than that, there's considerable agreement in the world about many of these parts of life. People on these fora love to talk about their take on objective reality, but, so far, I have not run into anybody who can definitively separate their subjective perceptions from their take on objectivity. That real world that we live in involves interactions with other beings who are subjectively making decisions based on what they perceive, and the experiences we have based on those decisions are quite real for each of us.

Simply dismissing something as subjective when you can't conclusively prove your take on objective reality doesn't cut it. You live in a world of subjective experiences and what you'd like to believe is objective reality. You can and do have both; it's not "either/or."

[kiki5711]

evil and good is inside of all of us. I can do as much evil and as much good. Depends on the circumstance.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Gawdzilla and RuleBritannia, Yes, 'six foot' is an objective measure, and many other things (i.e. happy and sad) are not. However, they are real experiences for us, and, more than that, there's considerable agreement in the world about many of these parts of life. People on these fora love to talk about their take on objective reality, but, so far, I have not run into anybody who can definitively separate their subjective perceptions from their take on objectivity. That real world that we live in involves interactions with other beings who are subjectively making decisions based on what they perceive, and the experiences we have based on those decisions are quite real for each of us.

Simply dismissing something as subjective when you can't conclusively prove your take on objective reality doesn't cut it. You live in a world of subjective experiences and what you'd like to believe is objective reality. You can and do have both; it's not "either/or."

LC, prove they're nothing more than subjective experiences. Your claim, your onus. Or not, I couldn't care either way.

[Hermit]

Pleasure and pain are indeed physio and also as yin yang one contains elements of the other

this symbol is not without merit as a short form philosophical approach

That symbol, as elegant as it is in its simplicity, is also an utter brain breaker, which is why I use it as my avatar. To interpret it as signifying that "one contains elements of the other" is trivially true - and that is about as far as popular conception extends - but its import goes well beyond that.

[LaMont Cranston]

Feck, Yes, I did read your post. You use the words "I don't think," which means that's that a viewpoint that's a product of your thinking, it's about a decision you made. More than that, you're not completely sure.

Did you actually starve yourself? Even if you did, do you think you can apply what you do or don't think to others, much less all of humanity? Sorry, but I am going to apply those concepts that you, in your subjectivity, think are silly. It's a funny thing, but such things as ideas, beliefs, viewpoints, opinions, concepts, principles, etc. have a way of manifesting themselves in the very real world. Unless you have some way of eliminating those things from your life and the lives of others, we'll probably keep bringing them into the discussion.

[Feck]

Gawdzilla and RuleBritannia, Yes, 'six foot' is an objective measure, and many other things (i.e. happy and sad) are not. However, they are real experiences for us, and, more than that, there's considerable agreement in the world about many of these parts of life. People on these fora love to talk about their take on objective reality, but, so far, I have not run into anybody who can definitively separate their subjective perceptions from their take on objectivity. That real world that we live in involves interactions with other beings who are subjectively making decisions based on what they perceive, and the experiences we have based on those decisions are quite real for each of us.

Simply dismissing something as subjective when you can't conclusively prove your take on objective reality doesn't cut it. You live in a world of subjective experiences and what you'd like to believe is objective reality. You can and do have both; it's not "either/or."

FBM and I would like to disagree !!! And I would like to point out that IT is ALL subjective !! SO tell me again WHY should I subjectively feel pain and loneliness
and hunger ?

This is a word game I can be unhappy in a situation that other people would be more than happy in (and yes LaMont I haver done without food for over a month twice ) And I cannot argue that most concepts have an opposite BUT they are concepts If you took the the very real suffering out of peoples lives then they would replace it with (what now we would consider) minor complaints . My point about food still stands as does my point about cuddling my dog .

[LaMont Cranston]

Gawdzilla, Nice try. I didn't say there's nothing more than subjective experiences. What I did say...or, if I didn't say it...let me make it clear now. I seriously doubt that you can differentiate, with absolute certainty, between that which is subjective or objective in your life. If you can, let's see you do it. You words "I couldn't care either way" are a subjective viewpoint on your part.