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Tigger
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by Tigger » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:09 pm
Theophilus wrote:FBM wrote:Theophilus wrote:Thanks for the clarification FBM. I think we would both agree that truth is not about what we do or don't like. We can say we don't like something; but that is a very different statement from saying something is not true. In atheism (as with religion) I think that sometimes "I don't like it" and "I don't think it is true" get a little muddled.
I largely agree. Thing is, in my experience, theists tend to believe because it makes them feel good, i.e., they like or prefer it, rather than because there's any evidence for it. People who use reason see belief in something for which there is no evidence as a profound error. If we could just go around saying that whatever we liked was true without providing and supporting evidence for it, there would be no basis for knowledge at all, would there? I mean, look at your avatar. It's full of idealistic, warm-fuzzy, romantic dreams. It reflects what you want to feel, what you want to be true, despite lack of any evidence that it actually is. (I don't mean that to sound harsh or insulting, btw.)
I hasten to add that non-theists also have unfounded beliefs, and some of them cling stubbornly to them. In my case, my fundamental ontology was deeply challenged by the fact that the Saints went to the Superbowl, and completely shattered when they actually won.

Yes, I think the emotional side can attract people to faith. I'm not sure how well it keeps them there though, especially if they start to dig deeper. Sooner or later I think people come across theology which is quite discomforting, counter-cultural and can be quite difficult to accept because it can be difficult to like or difficult to put into practice. As Timothy Radcliffe put it "the point of being a Christian is not because of what it does and doesn't do for us or for society, the only ultimate point of being a Christian is that it's true". There is a lot of evidence (in prime place would be the Gospels), but I would say not enough for conclusive proof.
I'll concede my avatar presents the comforting side of Christianity (which is an important part of Christianity).
I don't agree about your avatar. It presents the comforting side of humanity (which is an important part of humanity).

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Xamonas Chegwé
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by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:14 pm
Theophilus wrote:FBM wrote:Theophilus wrote:Thanks for the clarification FBM. I think we would both agree that truth is not about what we do or don't like. We can say we don't like something; but that is a very different statement from saying something is not true. In atheism (as with religion) I think that sometimes "I don't like it" and "I don't think it is true" get a little muddled.
I largely agree. Thing is, in my experience, theists tend to believe because it makes them feel good, i.e., they like or prefer it, rather than because there's any evidence for it. People who use reason see belief in something for which there is no evidence as a profound error. If we could just go around saying that whatever we liked was true without providing and supporting evidence for it, there would be no basis for knowledge at all, would there? I mean, look at your avatar. It's full of idealistic, warm-fuzzy, romantic dreams. It reflects what you want to feel, what you want to be true, despite lack of any evidence that it actually is. (I don't mean that to sound harsh or insulting, btw.)
I hasten to add that non-theists also have unfounded beliefs, and some of them cling stubbornly to them. In my case, my fundamental ontology was deeply challenged by the fact that the Saints went to the Superbowl, and completely shattered when they actually won.

Yes, I think the emotional side can attract people to faith. I'm not sure how well it keeps them there though, especially if they start to dig deeper. Sooner or later I think people come across theology which is quite discomforting, counter-cultural and can be quite difficult to accept because it can be difficult to like or difficult to put into practice. As Timothy Radcliffe put it "the point of being a Christian is not because of what it does and doesn't do for us or for society, the only ultimate point of being a Christian is that it's true". There is a lot of evidence (in prime place would be the Gospels), but I would say not enough for conclusive proof.
I'll concede my avatar presents the comforting side of Christianity (which is an important part of Christianity).
This is typical religious thinking in a nutshell. "The important part of christianity". Says who? You are pick'n'mixing. Ignore the nasty bits that jar with your personal sensibilities and concentrate on the 'important' bits. I don't recall particular parts of the babble being highlighted or underlined and designated as important.

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Theophilus
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by Theophilus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:01 pm
Tigger wrote:I don't agree about your avatar. It presents the comforting side of humanity (which is an important part of humanity).

Yes, I wouldn't want to argue too much with that - there is compassion and comfort in humanity (of all creeds and kin) as well.
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by Theophilus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:03 pm
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:This is typical religious thinking in a nutshell. "The important part of christianity". Says who? You are pick'n'mixing. Ignore the nasty bits that jar with your personal sensibilities and concentrate on the 'important' bits. I don't recall particular parts of the babble being highlighted or underlined and designated as important.

Actually I was indeed saying that as one goes deeper into theology and the Bible there are difficult and uncomfortable things to deal with, and that it's not all cuddly.
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Surendra Darathy
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by Surendra Darathy » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:31 pm
Theophilus wrote:there are difficult and uncomfortable things to deal with, and that it's not all cuddly.
Just like in real life. This doesn't mean the Bauble is the only place you can go to learn about them.
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Xamonas Chegwé
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by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:56 pm
Theophilus wrote:Xamonas Chegwé wrote:This is typical religious thinking in a nutshell. "The important part of christianity". Says who? You are pick'n'mixing. Ignore the nasty bits that jar with your personal sensibilities and concentrate on the 'important' bits. I don't recall particular parts of the babble being highlighted or underlined and designated as important.

Actually I was indeed saying that as one goes deeper into theology and the Bible there are difficult and uncomfortable things to deal with, and that it's not all cuddly.
Lucky those bits aren't important then, isn't it? You still haven't addressed that statement. How do you decide which bits are important and which aren't?

A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
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Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing 
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
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I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
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Theophilus
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by Theophilus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:51 pm
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Theophilus wrote:Xamonas Chegwé wrote:This is typical religious thinking in a nutshell. "The important part of christianity". Says who? You are pick'n'mixing. Ignore the nasty bits that jar with your personal sensibilities and concentrate on the 'important' bits. I don't recall particular parts of the babble being highlighted or underlined and designated as important.

Actually I was indeed saying that as one goes deeper into theology and the Bible there are difficult and uncomfortable things to deal with, and that it's not all cuddly.
Lucky those bits aren't important then, isn't it? You still haven't addressed that statement. How do you decide which bits are important and which aren't?

I'm not sure where you've got the impression that I think the "difficult" bits are unimportant; I would be wary of saying anything in the bible was unimportant, especially any bits which really challenge our understanding. As for how I work things through, I think the most important response there is "with others", as the church over the centuries has had to grapple with many difficult issues (not least in the earliest days of when the apostles had to decide whether Christians had to be Jews or not, as you can read about in the epistles and the book of Acts).
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Gawdzilla Sama
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by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:52 pm
Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
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by Theophilus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:57 pm
Gawdzilla wrote:Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
Why should I? If someone who believes in Zeus wants to talk to me about it I'll try and keep an open mind.
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by AshtonBlack » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:18 pm
Theophilus wrote:Gawdzilla wrote:Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
Why should I? If someone who believes in Zeus wants to talk to me about it I'll try and keep an open mind.
You can see, though, to an outside observer, the evidence for both Jeheova AND Zeus is about the same (Very Old Documents)
and let's not forget the Muslims either, they say their book is their final word, no takey backies cross me heart and kill you if you don't believe. You're not worried you've bet on the wrong dog?
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Gawdzilla Sama
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by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:30 pm
Theophilus wrote:Gawdzilla wrote:Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
Why should I? If someone who believes in Zeus wants to talk to me about it I'll try and keep an open mind.
Just wondering why you picked your personal god over Zeus?
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Rum
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by Rum » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:42 pm
Gawdzilla wrote:Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
I ..er..don't think Zeus is in the Bibble. (sic)
Which is where the 'proof' is after all.
(Scrambled brains anyone?)
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Theophilus
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by Theophilus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:46 pm
AshtonBlack wrote:Theophilus wrote:Gawdzilla wrote:Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
Why should I? If someone who believes in Zeus wants to talk to me about it I'll try and keep an open mind.
You can see, though, to an outside observer, the evidence for both Jeheova AND Zeus is about the same (Very Old Documents)
and let's not forget the Muslims either, they say their book is their final word, no takey backies cross me heart and kill you if you don't believe. You're not worried you've bet on the wrong dog?
Well I'm not aware of claimed eye witness reports for Zeus in the same way that the Gospels make claims about Jesus.
As for the Muslim faith - there is much that I would probably consider true (I think it is a mistake to divide faiths into "all true" and "all wrong"), but remember that its alternative claims about Jesus were written 600 years after Jesus lived. Why believe those rather than epistles and gospels written in the first century? That would be like me deciding to write a new history of the Tudors today (with Anne Boleyn not actually being beheaded) and saying all the original documents are wrong.
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Gawdzilla Sama
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by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:50 pm
Theophilus wrote:AshtonBlack wrote:Theophilus wrote:Gawdzilla wrote:Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
Why should I? If someone who believes in Zeus wants to talk to me about it I'll try and keep an open mind.
You can see, though, to an outside observer, the evidence for both Jeheova AND Zeus is about the same (Very Old Documents)
and let's not forget the Muslims either, they say their book is their final word, no takey backies cross me heart and kill you if you don't believe. You're not worried you've bet on the wrong dog?
Well I'm not aware of claimed eye witness reports for Zeus in the same way that the Gospels make claims about Jesus.
As for the Muslim faith - there is much that I would probably consider true (I think it is a mistake to divide faiths into "all true" and "all wrong"), but remember that its alternative claims about Jesus were written 600 years after Jesus lived. Why believe those rather than epistles and gospels written in the first century? That would be like me deciding to write a new history of the Tudors today (with Anne Boleyn not actually being beheaded) and saying all the original documents are wrong.
Zeus and the other gods of Olympus left many children behind, so there would be your eyewitness reports.
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by Rum » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:52 pm
Theophilus wrote:AshtonBlack wrote:Theophilus wrote:Gawdzilla wrote:Theophilus, why don't you believe in Zeus?
Why should I? If someone who believes in Zeus wants to talk to me about it I'll try and keep an open mind.
You can see, though, to an outside observer, the evidence for both Jeheova AND Zeus is about the same (Very Old Documents)
and let's not forget the Muslims either, they say their book is their final word, no takey backies cross me heart and kill you if you don't believe. You're not worried you've bet on the wrong dog?
Well I'm not aware of claimed eye witness reports for Zeus in the same way that the Gospels make claims about Jesus.
As for the Muslim faith - there is much that I would probably consider true (I think it is a mistake to divide faiths into "all true" and "all wrong"), but remember that its alternative claims about Jesus were written 600 years after Jesus lived. Why believe those rather than epistles and gospels written in the first century? That would be like me deciding to write a new history of the Tudors today (with Anne Boleyn not actually being beheaded) and saying all the original documents are wrong.
Sooo - how do you decide which bits are true and which are not? Suppose the bits about Jesus being the son of god are not entirely correct. Leaves you rather exposed I would suggest.
Also - if the Bibble is 'inspired', a common Christian belief, why isn't all of it? If god inspired it and some bits are wrong it would suggest that god is not infallible.
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