Circumcision - a rational debate

[MissingNo.]

I have no problems with male infants getting circumcised.

But you're a Klingon. Klingon foreskin is highly acidic and covered in jagged spikes.

[mozg]

I sure do. I wish the practice was abandoned all together.

Me too. If for no other reason that foreskins are FUN.

[ficklefiend]

Penn & Teller made an episode of Bullshit! on this subject:

part one:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=104250728054

part two:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=104256948054

part three:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=104258688054

Wow.

Maybe they should make the parents watch that procedure. It's fairly horrible.

[virphen]

I don't get how people could possibly not have a problem with the genital mutilation of infants.

[mozg]

Wow.

Maybe they should make the parents watch that procedure. It's fairly horrible.

It's really horrible watching that doctor casually talk about how she straps a newborn's legs into a tray so she can cut off the most touch sensitive body part a human male has, and then watching the poor kid scream helplessly as his genitals are permanently mutilated.

If circumcision had been invented last week, it would be illegal.

[floppit]

I think it is extremely unethical to alter the body of another human being without their consent, unless it is for genuine health reasons. There are rarely health reasons which require full circumcision of the male foreskin. The vast majority of reasons given are fallacious and unsupported by evidence ... they're either now considered unnecessary, such as for hygiene (we don't live like savages anymore and have running water and soap these days) or require far less alteration (mutilation) of the penis than full circumcision, or the even more unnecessary and abhorrent cultural reasons, including aesthetic, traditional (rites of passage, 'like father like son', etc) and superstitious reasons.

When I first read this I thought - yep, I agree wholeheartedly, then I thought some more. I can't take my own cultural luxuries out of the equation, I'm lucky, I live in a culture where there's more freedom than for many others both around the world and on my geographic doorstep. I used to teach an autistic child from a Gypsy family, a little boy who was much loved and dressed head to toe in the most garish brand name clothing, his sister had her ears pierced almost on leaving the womb! The children would all play together, unusually the autistic kid was not excluded, nor was his slightly luckier but still LD brother, extended family were very present and paid towards the kid's extra help, his Dad would take him to work with him often. I don't agree with piercing baby girl's ears - but, like the lad's Nike trainers, the little girls gold earings were a part of belonging in what was actually a damn fine start. Now, don't get me wrong it has it's problems and I'm not trying to pretend that the above description covers every aspect of Gypsy life in a static park just that it was part of it and it was a good part of it and it was also part of why little girls there have their ears pierced.

As a parent I don't want to always choose the right thing, as an adult I'd like to but still don't - I have more than I strictly need yet I know people starve and I know there is something I could do to help, I accept for myself compromises that allow or even support suffering (I but fair trade bananas but if normal ones are marked down I buy them instead etc etc etc). I look at my beloved rocking zebra and wonder where the wood came from (hardwood). The choices I'd like to make as a parent are the wisest ones I can, nonconformity (I think) should be chosen not forced on a child because it's the child who WILL pay the consequences of rebellion. If I had a boy and lived in a culture where he would be teased, isolated, and rejected because he had foreskin AND there was a relatively safe way to remove it, the decision wouldn't be as clear cut for me as my first agreement that it's wrong. To leave it would follow my own principles - great but from the kid's perspective 'So what?'. If I make compromises on my own principles for myself, ie buying the lovely zeb and worrying about the wood later, or not giving what I could to charity then surely I need to at least give some thought to where it is or maybe isn't acceptable to follow my principles with my kid?

My reality is that I simply cannot imagine the social pressure - I have never experienced it, I grew up in blighty where despite the presence of faith and superstition it is not on the same scale, I have not known the other reality, I can't speak from knowledge or experience and that curbs my enthusiasm to say each parent going with the cultural rules is equally wrong.

I would say though that where risk/pain/deprivation exceeds the relatively minor it definitely becomes an easier judgement for me to say it is utterly wrong.

I apologise I haven't read the whole thread - time is a little short and it was either read it all or reply!

[Ameri Boi]

Most circumcised men are unaware of what they've lost because they never had it to begin with - it was removed when they were too young to protest outside infantile screaming their pain. There are studies** which suggest that, though males don't consciously remember this pain, it may have an enduring subconscious effect on their psyche.

I shall not impose this on my child...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Most circumcised men are unaware of what they've lost because they never had it to begin with - it was removed when they were too young to protest outside infantile screaming their pain. There are studies** which suggest that, though males don't consciously remember this pain, it may have an enduring subconscious effect on their psyche.

I'm curious about this report. So pain causes enduring subconscious effects? Just the pee-pee whacking or all pain? I am trying to get the idea out of my minds that this pain is "special" because it concerns the penis, but I just can't, and I find it really strange.

If this is "special" pain, how so? If not, does any source of pain leave "enduring subconscious effects on their psyche."

[Hermit]

I have no problems with male infants getting circumcised.

Do go on, please. I'd really like to know why you have no problems with male infants getting circumcised.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I have no problems with male infants getting circumcised.

Do go on, please. I'd really like to know why you have no problems with male infants getting circumcised.

It started out as a surrogate for human sacrifice and went downhill from there.

[charlou]

Most circumcised men are unaware of what they've lost because they never had it to begin with - it was removed when they were too young to protest outside infantile screaming their pain. There are studies** which suggest that, though males don't consciously remember this pain, it may have an enduring subconscious effect on their psyche.

I'm curious about this report. So pain causes enduring subconscious effects? Just the pee-pee whacking or all pain? I am trying to get the idea out of my minds that this pain is "special" because it concerns the penis, but I just can't, and I find it really strange.

If this is "special" pain, how so? If not, does any source of pain leave "enduring subconscious effects on their psyche."

I don't think it would be 'special' pain (and that's not how I read the study), just an experience that shapes the mind of a person, just like every single experience that person has.

[lordpasternack]

Hi guys. I'm in Melbourne right now, pissed, and it's currently coming up for 5am. I shall get onto this when I can...

[Tigger]

Hi guys. I'm in Melbourne right now, pissed, and it's currently coming up for 5am. I shall get onto this when I can...

We await with bated breath.

[MissingNo.]

and Not Safe for Peace of Mind.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

Holy shit! When I first saw this, I thought it was some barbaric device from an archaic medical practice but these things are actually used in contemporary infant circumcision! That is disturbing.

[Ameri Boi]

My eyes!!!