Circumcision - a rational debate

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It seems that whenever I say anything at all negative about circumcision being done to infant males, people label me as a kook and say that such a loony viewpoint is not even worth considering.

I find that men will defend the practice as well, because they want their sons to undergo the same thing they did, and their penis works just fine thank you very much - and when I point out that there are plenty of circumcised women in Africa who will say the same thing about their daughters and that they are still able to orgasm - they just look at me like I am crazy and say that FGM is horrible and not at all the same as male circumcision which is not mutilation.

They don't realize that thousands of miles away some woman who had her labia cut off is also standing there saying 'I am not mutilated.' just like they are saying to me. And if I tell them this, they either don't believe me or tell me that these women are in denial.

Guess what?

And as for the argument that women don't like uncircumcised cock, well, I am an American woman and I prefer them the way nature made them. WITH FORESKIN.

LP will give you a lot of strong arguments to counter the negative attitude.

My older brother was clipped I wasn't. I think Mom didn't like what they did to David, so I dodged that bullet. Other than that I can't think of anything he's ever done that was useful.

[MissingNo.]

I think that if I tried to fight for a law against circumcision to be passed, I would get resistance, not only from religious kooks but from average men who are uncomfortable with the idea that their penis is somehow "wrong" and will fight the law just so they don't have to face reality. It's not a pleasant thought. It's one that I find hard to deal with but that I've always accepted. I've been considering some sort of surgery for a while but I fear the possible side effects. Who labels you as a kook for saying such things? I know my parents would probably freak out if they heard me say it (they already flipped when I said that if I had a son, I wouldn't circumcise him) but I think a lot of people I know would agree or at least hear me out.

[FBM]

Thanks for the turtleneck, mom!

[mozg]

LP will give you a lot of strong arguments to counter the negative attitude.

My older brother was clipped I wasn't. I think Mom didn't like what they did to David, so I dodged that bullet. Other than that I can't think of anything he's ever done that was useful.

Did she watch them do it? Because watching it done really brings home the barbarity of it.

Of course I'm a 'radical' at being anti-infant circumcision. I don't think it should ever be done, and that includes barring mohels from circumcising infants for religious reasons as well. Kids should not be having permanent changes made to their body in the name of religion. If a guy wants to be Jewish and he wants his foreskin cut off, when he's 18 years old he can go and have it done then.

Lots of people have called me a kook, heyzeus. People all over web forums, my family, friends of mine. I've been called an anti-Semite, a bigot, and compared to Hitler by a Jewish guy I know who claims that my opposition to infant circumcision is an attempt to wipe out the Jewish religion. Recently a relative of mine was having a son, and before the boy was born I asked if they had thought about whether or not to circumcise. My relatives (the parents) looked at me like I had three heads and said 'Of course he's getting circumcised. Why would you even ask that?'

They really believe it's medically impossible for a man to go through his whole life with a foreskin, and they think I'm the crazy one.

[Tigger]

Does anyone at Ratz feel differently or are you all with me on this one? Does anyone know what can be done about this?

Forgive the snipping of your post and the horrible unintentional pun that has arisen because of it, but I wanted to say that I agree with you totally. In the UK circumcision is not as common as elsewhere, but I think it's abhorrent that this practice occurs so widely in places where religion is not so dominating. I know that it stems from religious beliefs yada yada yada, and I think it's unacceptable no matter what the excuse, but I was recently unpleasantly surprised to learn that many Americans just do it because everyone else does and not because of a religious belief. There is no excuse whatsoever. There is one consolation in that the victim, if an infant, will never know of the loss, but to mutilate someone in the name of convenience/religion/peer pressure is anathema to me. In my experience of cocks, which I have some, it fucking is a loss. Shame on anyone who does it.

[MissingNo.]

I've been called an anti-Semite, a bigot, and compared to Hitler by a Jewish guy I know who claims that my opposition to infant circumcision is an attempt to wipe out the Jewish religion.

Jewish people have tendency to cry anti-Semite if you say anything against their religion or Israel. They have a larger persecution complex than Christians. You should tell him that I come from a Jewish family and no one finds it more abhorrent and disgusting and no one wants to see it brought to an end more than me. I know that will probably sound like one of those "I a lot of my friends are Jewish!" excuses but oh well, this time it's legitimate and coming from someone who actually isn't an anti-Semite. I can just imagine all the protests by religious Jews that I would have to face if I ever seriously took this thing on. I can imagine being shunned by my extended family but if they don't want to see me because I oppose the way the mutilate infants' penises, then fuck them. I wouldn't want to see them again either. I really want to find a way to get some sort of law passed. I really hope it does one day. Then all the Rabbis will laugh at how barbaric it was and make excuses about how the Torah doesn't REALLY advocate infant circumcision. It's all a metaphor or some shit like that. These barbaric theologies have already been dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world to a large extent but it seems like they're still putting up a resistance.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I have merged this thread with an earlier one on the same subject. Newer members might find some of that interesting.

[mozg]

I've been called an anti-Semite, a bigot, and compared to Hitler by a Jewish guy I know who claims that my opposition to infant circumcision is an attempt to wipe out the Jewish religion.

Jewish people have tendency to cry anti-Semite if you say anything against their religion or Israel. They have a larger persecution complex than Christians. You should tell him that I come from a Jewish family and no one finds it more abhorrent and disgusting and no one wants to see it brought to an end more than me. I know that will probably sound like one of those "I a lot of my friends are Jewish!" excuses but oh well, this time it's legitimate and coming from someone who actually isn't an anti-Semite. I can just imagine all the protests by religious Jews that I would have to face if I ever seriously took this thing on. I can imagine being shunned by my extended family but if they don't want to see me because I oppose the way the mutilate infants' penises, then fuck them. I wouldn't want to see them again either. I really want to find a way to get some sort of law passed. I really hope it does one day. Then all the Rabbis will laugh at how barbaric it was and make excuses about how the Torah doesn't REALLY advocate infant circumcision. It's all a metaphor or some shit like that. These barbaric theologies have already been dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world to a large extent but it seems like they're still putting up a resistance.

The first person I ever met who was angry about his own circumcision was a Jewish guy who was circumcised when he was a week old in a tenement in Brooklyn NY by his parents' rabbi. He described himself to me as a hereditary Jew, but was himself a non-believer, and could never forgive what was done to him. There seem to be plenty of people who come from a Jewish background themselves and are opposed to the practice of infant circumcision.

It's not because I hate Jews or am out to destroy the Jewish religion. It's because I abhor the fact that this is specifically done to someone who cannot object, in part because they cannot object.

This is why I oppose the involuntary mutilation of babies who are unable to consent, but I don't give a damn whether adults want to slice and dice their own genitals. Why on earth anyone considers me crazy for this, I cannot understand.

[MissingNo.]

I have no freaking clue either. Like your friend, I was also born into a Jewish family but I wouldn't consider myself Jewish except in very specific contexts. I think it's almost fortunate, though, that I was born into a Jewish family because if I were to spearhead a lobby against infant circumcision, I would be guarded from most accusations of antisemitism. It's going to be impossible to make anything happen without a lot of opposition from religious Jews even though it's not a religious issue, it's a human rights issue.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

and Not Safe for Peace of Mind.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

[MissingNo.]

Penn & Teller made an episode of Bullshit! on this subject:

part one:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=104250728054

part two:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=104256948054

part three:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=104258688054

[Tigger]

and Not Safe for Peace of Mind.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

That is fucking vile.

[MissingNo.]

Ugh, the more I think about this, the more I'm bothered by it. I don't even know who to be angry at. My parents? Doctors? The mohel who most likely performed my circumcision? The society which allows this to persist? Human rights organizations for not paying any attention to this human rights violation? I think that's what I'm most annoyed about, actually. How is this not a major topic of discussion? How could we just let this slip by without any resistance? Why does it seem like no one cares? I'm so fucking pissed off right now.

[Martok]

I have no problems with male infants getting circumcised.

[Randydeluxe]

I sure do. I wish the practice was abandoned all together.