Metaphysics as an Error

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Surendra Darathy
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:10 pm

jamest wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:
jamest wrote:[quot
Everything I am saying here is just to facilitate the start/possibility/grounds/basis of a metaphysical argument that would eventually identify/define that 'thing' which has been proven to exist, distinct to empirical data. And that's the perfect methodology for a serious metaphysician.
No. You're assuming metaphysics to show that you can start on metaphysics.
That's silly. I've proved that 'something' exists beyond the single umbrella of the empirical realm. And the focus of this proof was the empirical realm itself. I haven't assumed anything, least of all metaphysics. Certainly, metaphysics is the conclusion of that particular proof, as in: and, therefore, there is a grounds for metaphysics to focus upon.
That is, my proof facilitates the onset of metaphysics.
Again with your garbage assertions, James. You assert that you've proven that something exists. To talk about existence at all, you already need to assume metaphysics, as "existence" is a metaphysical property. You have shown now a couple of dozen times you are not able to discourse about what you want to show without using the word "existence". For someone to try to bootstrap metaphysics by use of the word "existence" is pathetically inane.

Your fumbling word game is completely amateurish. You call the empirical a "realm" as if it was a metaphysical category. It is not. The empirical is the collection of all observations, written down in such a way as to be communicated. The exchange of communication is an empirical fact. If you doubt that, you are a solipsist, and an amateurish one, at that.

Do not talk about the existence of anything until you have established that metaphysics is viable. Please desist. Your efforts are now in a shambles, except for your persistence in making naked (ex recto) assertions.

The empiricist is under no obligation to declare from what "realm" the recorded observations of empiricism "originate". The observations are what is communicated, and the only founding feature of this empiricism is that observations can be communicated. All it assumes is the possibility of communication, and as communication is defined, by definition, communication is taking place. I get communications which I must assume I did not originate, or else I am a solipsist.

Solipsism is so fucking cowardly that its proponents do not deserve the satisfaction of having their delusion destroyed. Furthermore, lack of solipsism in a communication is not metaphysics. It is "lack of evidence of mental illness" in a communication.
:banghead:
Last edited by Surendra Darathy on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:17 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:...

Now, on the main point of the thread, are we not here doing metaphysics? have we not discussed and agreed an essential nature of absolute truth
Isnt this
Absolute truths do not change. (definition)
Time does not apply to that which does not change.
Absolute truth is timeless.
metaphysics?
How can you do metaphysics and maintain metaphysics cant be done?

This short exercise we have been through has established something of the nature of absolute truth, and done so without emperical method.
Therefore we demonstrated metaphysics can be done.
Thereby metaphysics has been demonstrated to be able to produce knowledge; we know absolute truth is changeless (definition), absolute truth is timeless (logic), it can not be found by emperical method (logic), and may be possible to find by other methods although we have not investigated what these may be yet (logic).
No, you simply defined "Absolute Truth" to be "Timeless".

You can remove "Absolute truth" from your informal syllogism and it makes as much tautological sense. Something unchanging can be described as "timeless".

What you seem to think you have shown is that "Absolute Truth" is unchanging, but you haven't. You have said nothing meaningful about "absolute truth".
As I just said to SD,
The point that absolute truth can not change, therefore is changeless, therefore is timeless - as you say same as anything else which is changeless - is the very starting point from which we go on.

However, can you give any examples of these 'other' things that dont change, and therefore qualify as changeless and timeless?

If not, we may be forced to agree this is a unique property of absolute truth, no?
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:21 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:...

Now, on the main point of the thread, are we not here doing metaphysics? have we not discussed and agreed an essential nature of absolute truth
Isnt this
Absolute truths do not change. (definition)
Time does not apply to that which does not change.
Absolute truth is timeless.
metaphysics?
How can you do metaphysics and maintain metaphysics cant be done?

This short exercise we have been through has established something of the nature of absolute truth, and done so without emperical method.
Therefore we demonstrated metaphysics can be done.
Thereby metaphysics has been demonstrated to be able to produce knowledge; we know absolute truth is changeless (definition), absolute truth is timeless (logic), it can not be found by emperical method (logic), and may be possible to find by other methods although we have not investigated what these may be yet (logic).
No, you simply defined "Absolute Truth" to be "Timeless".

You can remove "Absolute truth" from your informal syllogism and it makes as much tautological sense. Something unchanging can be described as "timeless".

What you seem to think you have shown is that "Absolute Truth" is unchanging, but you haven't. You have said nothing meaningful about "absolute truth".
As I just said to SD,
The point that absolute truth can not change, therefore is changeless, therefore is timeless - as you say same as anything else which is changeless - is the very starting point from which we go on.

However, can you give any examples of these 'other' things that dont change, and therefore qualify as changeless and timeless?

If not, we may be forced to agree this is a unique property of absolute truth, no?
You missed the point. You haven't shown that "absolute truth" must be timeless, you merely defined it as such. You might as well define "absolute truth" as purple then conclude it has colour.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:24 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
However, can you give any examples of these 'other' things that dont change, and therefore qualify as changeless and timeless?
What the fuck, Little Idiot. There's no call for you to refer to "other" things that don't change. Not one thing has been shown to be the subject of discourse which does not change. You have offered a definition of absolute truth as changeless, but you have not shown that "other things" stand in relation to it. Even if you could, it would still be giving the lie to anything absolute about absolute truth. We went all through this with BrianMan, and if you are going to be at it as long as he was, it will be because of your tolerance for self-repetition.

Perhaps you will try another tack: Absolute truth is irrefutable. We can have fun with that one, too. Any truth left unstated will be, by its very nature, irrefutable. But it will also continue to be unsayable. Talking about the unsayable is precisely why proposing to do metaphysics is silly.
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:26 pm

LI, suppose I claim 'Gravity is an unchanging fundamental force', then conclude 'Gravity is timeless', have I said anything worth saying?

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:27 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:MNot factual. If we care to look at the facts of what I said, I said [url=http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 99#p377299]here
P1. If there is absolute truth, it must not change, or it is not absolute.
Why did I put 'if' at the start? Obviously to avoid asserting what has not been establshed.
Doesnt this just kill dead your point above?
Nope. Here's how you should do it:
Absolute truths do not change. (definition)
Time does not apply to that which does not change.
Absolute truth is timeless.
There's no need to make it hypothetical. We know you are testing a framework to see if it functions.
I did start with 'if' rather than assert the existence of absolute truth, but if we're happy to go with that, I do prefer your first three lines than mine.

One thing, I would respectfully point out the minor error; absolute truth must be singular, as I said to Graham, (wors to effect of) I think we struggle to introduce the idea of more than one into the 'timeless'.
When we examine the timeless, changeless, it must be thingless and therefore non-dual - there can not be two, this is 'the one without a second'
As we have not yet gone that far in our deravation of the absolute, I will agree this is unproven at this point, if you wish to assert this is wibble or woo.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:28 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:...
Perhaps you will try another tack: Absolute truth is irrefutable. We can have fun with that one, too. Any truth left unstated will be, by its very nature, irrefutable. But it will also continue to be unsayable. Talking about the unsayable is precisely why proposing to do metaphysics is silly.
Well put.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:29 pm

GrahamH wrote:LI, suppose I claim 'Gravity is an unchanging fundamental force', then conclude 'Gravity is timeless', have I said anything worth saying?
If you prove gravity is a force, that would be a start.
Oh but thats one pet mystery of mine and physics in general, WTF is gravity...DERAIL halt!
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:35 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
However, can you give any examples of these 'other' things that dont change, and therefore qualify as changeless and timeless?
What the fuck, Little Idiot. There's no call for you to refer to "other" things that don't change. Not one thing has been shown to be the subject of discourse which does not change. You have offered a definition of absolute truth as changeless, but you have not shown that "other things" stand in relation to it. Even if you could, it would still be giving the lie to anything absolute about absolute truth. We went all through this with BrianMan, and if you are going to be at it as long as he was, it will be because of your tolerance for self-repetition.

Perhaps you will try another tack: Absolute truth is irrefutable. We can have fun with that one, too. Any truth left unstated will be, by its very nature, irrefutable. But it will also continue to be unsayable. Talking about the unsayable is precisely why proposing to do metaphysics is silly.
Well I did just refer to this in another post, in my first three lines I made no such definition, you defined it in that way. Mine was a hypothetical, remember.
So, I dont think this point applies to my version.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:37 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:LI, suppose I claim 'Gravity is an unchanging fundamental force', then conclude 'Gravity is timeless', have I said anything worth saying?
If you prove gravity is a force, that would be a start.
Oh but thats one pet mystery of mine and physics in general, WTF is gravity...DERAIL halt!
I'm not making that claim, merely using it as an example of why your "absolute truth" claim is useless. Your own response should guide you. First "prove absolute truth exists" and show how you can say anything meaningful about it.

How would you distinguish "absolute truth" from "absolute nonsense"?

How about :
D1 Absolute truth is ineffable
...

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 pm

You missed the point. You haven't shown that "absolute truth" must be timeless, you merely defined it as such. You might as well define "absolute truth" as purple then conclude it has colour.
No, I defined it as if there is absolute truth, then it is changeless.
My hypothetical defines it an changeless, I used logic to say its timeless.

all changeless things are timeless, if it exists absoult truth is changeless, therefore if it exists it has to be timeless.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:44 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:LI, suppose I claim 'Gravity is an unchanging fundamental force', then conclude 'Gravity is timeless', have I said anything worth saying?
If you prove gravity is a force, that would be a start.
Oh but thats one pet mystery of mine and physics in general, WTF is gravity...DERAIL halt!
I'm not making that claim, merely using it as an example of why your "absolute truth" claim is useless. Your own response should guide you. First "prove absolute truth exists" and show how you can say anything meaningful about it.

How would you distinguish "absolute truth" from "absolute nonsense"?

How about :
D1 Absolute truth is ineffable
...
recall I did say what it would be like without proving its existence. Thats why I started with 'if'

Logic allows if then statements.

If T is changeless, and all changeless things are timeless, then T is timeless. This is allowed in logic. And it is allowed regardless of having to prove the T is real, or exists.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:46 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:LI, suppose I claim 'Gravity is an unchanging fundamental force', then conclude 'Gravity is timeless', have I said anything worth saying?
If you prove gravity is a force, that would be a start.
Oh but thats one pet mystery of mine and physics in general, WTF is gravity...DERAIL halt!
I'm not making that claim, merely using it as an example of why your "absolute truth" claim is useless. Your own response should guide you. First "prove absolute truth exists" and show how you can say anything meaningful about it.

How would you distinguish "absolute truth" from "absolute nonsense"?

How about :
D1 Absolute truth is ineffable
...
The same way as how we distinguish dream from waking; by comparison.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:49 pm

GrahamH wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:...
Perhaps you will try another tack: Absolute truth is irrefutable. We can have fun with that one, too. Any truth left unstated will be, by its very nature, irrefutable. But it will also continue to be unsayable. Talking about the unsayable is precisely why proposing to do metaphysics is silly.
Well put.
And dismissed by the same sentance as I jus said to Graham;
IF absolute truth exists it is changeless, all things which are changeless are timeless, therefore if absolute truth exists it is timeless.

This logic holds and does not depend on absolute truth being real or existing.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:50 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
GrahamH wrote:LI, suppose I claim 'Gravity is an unchanging fundamental force', then conclude 'Gravity is timeless', have I said anything worth saying?
If you prove gravity is a force, that would be a start.
Oh but thats one pet mystery of mine and physics in general, WTF is gravity...DERAIL halt!
I'm not making that claim, merely using it as an example of why your "absolute truth" claim is useless. Your own response should guide you. First "prove absolute truth exists" and show how you can say anything meaningful about it.

How would you distinguish "absolute truth" from "absolute nonsense"?

How about :
D1 Absolute truth is ineffable
...
recall I did say what it would be like without proving its existence. Thats why I started with 'if'

Logic allows if then statements.

If T is changeless, and all changeless things are timeless, then T is timeless. This is allowed in logic. And it is allowed regardless of having to prove the T is real, or exists.
Yes, yes, yes,
IF X is changeless THEN X is timeless,
but can you show that "Absolute Truth" is changeless/timeless? You haven't do so yet. All you have done is define it to be so.

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