First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

[Surendra Darathy]

I, for one, valued it very much. I went there all the time. It was my favorite place to post.

Be careful what you value, my friend. You may find that it has value only to yourself. If you need to press into service the value that other people place on something you value, you're just a merchant. This is a kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" approach to value, but there you have it. You can tell that sentimentality is not my strong suit.

the internet is an important lifeline for isolated atheists

Where's that violin smilie when I need it?

[Simon_Gardner]

I feel very annoyed that he is being misled with false information from (probably) Andrew Chalkley in order to cover up his incompetence. Until Richard has the full picture of what has happened and why, he'll just respond to the lies he's being fed.

Peter’s blog post seems like a pretty good summary. If he wants to read it, he can.

My view is that funds need to be raised to start RD-net II minus the RD foundation if there’s a will to do it. Let RD do what he wants with his own site. Me, I always rated Dawkins as a geneticist; if I want an atheist, I’ll stick with The Hitch, thanks.

[klr]

People seem to be operating under a weird misapprehension that Richard Dawkins is an absentee landlord who only hears about what is going on in the forums when he gets reports from his brutal overseer, Black Josh. It's not true -- he is pretty savvy about this internet stuff, and can actually follow what you wild and crazy forum denizens say. And what he has been seeing is not pretty. Just look at this thread and the kinds of abuse people are heaping on Josh Timonen! I guarantee you that he is not browsing the forum here, or was browsing the RDF forums, and thinking, "Gee, these are exactly the kinds of people and comments I aim to encourage". I'd guess he's feeling glad to be rid of some of the riff-raff.

And at the same time, the RDF has lost some good people whose input has been and would be valuable. If those people weren't all baying at Josh in the current witchhunt, that is.

I speak from past experience with forum drama. Take some time and cool off. It's not that important. The people you're blaming really aren't out to hurt you (honestly, Josh is a good guy, his job is simply much larger than shepherding a forum, and those who hate him have really lost perspective), and if you show a little patience and tolerance, you might even be able to get them to help you out with some of your reasonable requests. I'm sure they actually like and respect many of the contributors and the general importance of the social aspect of the forums, but are reasonably concerned about the rather more vicious minority. What I see here doesn't help. There are some people here they would rather not see coming back to the RD forums. Can you guess why?

It's not because they're nasty vengeful control freaks, either. It might have more to do with the fact that they're human beings.

I'm afraid some of us can give you first-hand evidence to the contrary, having been one-time staff there. More than that, Josh Timonen, by his own admission, hardly looked at the forum, as he once admitted to me in an email. He was just too busy with other activities. That was back in late 2008. Things have changed somewhat since then, but not dramatically.

[num1cubfn]

By the way, PZ. I want to thank you very deeply for responding on these forums. I still think you misunderstand that people are upset about things that Josh did, not about upcomming forum changes, but it's wonderful to have you here replying to this anyways. Thanks again for replying, because for a while there it was rather surreal about how Josh could do these things (deleting posts, preventing communication, rick rolling, etc) with noone other than the dawkins.net community noticing.

[Bella Fortuna]

I'm a "celebrity" now? Heh.

Yeah you are, you were in that rather excellent movie "Expelled"

And you had your picture taken with me a few weeks ago, so you must be.

[Heresiarch]

Oh, and you can just imagine how Josh has portrayed this forum to RD.

Only real atheists (the baby eating kind) post here.

[cowiz]

I'm a "celebrity" now? Heh.

Yeah you are, you were in that rather excellent movie "Expelled"

And you had your picture taken with me a few weeks ago, so you must be.

My gawd, who's that standing next to Bella?

[Heresiarch]

I'm a "celebrity" now? Heh.

Yeah you are, you were in that rather excellent movie "Expelled"

And you had your picture taken with me a few weeks ago, so you must be.

You've grown a beard since your avatar picture was taken Bella?

[Fastin]

I'm a "celebrity" now? Heh. I'm a guy with a blog, with absolutely zero influence over Josh, and no obligations in return.

Although I am a little miffed. I've seen the traffic numbers on RD.net from Google Analytics, and it gets about 1/2 to 2/3 of the traffic of Pharyngula (and sorry to inform you of the diminution of your status further still, but the forums only got about 1/4 of the traffic of the whole site). And you guys keep talking about how RD.net is the biggest.

And yeah, I know how important these kinds of sites can be to people -- they often represent the only outlet for atheists in a sea of superstitious fools to reach out and express themselves. When I say that they are not that important, I mean that the particular instantiation of a mode of communication, whether it's RD.net or Rationalia or Pharyngula or RaptureReady, isn't the big deal. The fact that you're communicating is what matters. And that hasn't changed.

PZ I think the thing that you are misunderstanding is that for quite a lot of people RD.net was a very very important outlet. I live in a SE suburb of Houston, TX. Texas for the most part is as fundamental as it gets; as you well know because I have read numerous entries on your blog about the asinine 'scientific' curriculum that is being shoved down our nations throat. RD.net was somewhere that I could go and actually talk to other agnostic, atheist, rational, free thinking individuals without the fear of being persecuted for my lack of beliefs. Now that outlet has been pulled out from under us without a chance to attempt get our community back together under a new roof. I think what has caused so much outrage over this entire mess isn't the fact that RD.net has changed. It's the fact that we as a community never got the chance to properly set up a life boat that we could all jump aboard.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yes, people value the forum. I, for one, valued it very much. I went there all the time. It was my favorite place to post. You and I had many discussions, usually on opposite sides, and I always thought it was great (I was under a different name).

What?! What is this devilry?! I demand to know who you are! Goddamnit, is this Prospero?

Who is Prospero? Must be a smart guy.

But, even though I value it, that doesn't mean I give it an importance that it doesn't deserve. Even if they decided to end it - say, because of cost issues and they wanted to take the site in a different direction - I would be disappointed and I would oppose such a move, but in the grand scheme of things, there would be far greater things to go off half-cocked about.

Well, I think I personally have been pretty measured about it, asking salient questions and putting forth reasonable supposition and commentary (perhaps I think too highly of my response to this whole thing). Yes, I have been a wee bit emotional, but one thing I haven't done is march around with a torch and pitchfork.

I mentioned in another post above that I thought your reaction has been rational. There is certainly plenty to object about it all, but I think there are more productive ways to go about it (not referring to you, but to the ranters).

But as I commented in another colossal thread, I think there is a disturbing trend in various media and certainly on the Internet toward "managed content" and a disregard to a free flowing, organic exchange in favor of "moderation." I think this move at RD.net is another example, but I won't know for sure until the new "forum" is up and running. People just don't like the idea of their Internet being sanitized. The reaction of Mr. Timonen and Mr. Dawkins to this whole thing tells me they just don't understand the underlying concerns, and use the vitriol of a minority of their website's user base as rationalization for their callousness.

Rest assured though, none of this makes me lose sleep at night. lol

Yeah - I see the "managed content" thing coming too, all over the web. We've seen it with a lot of sites taking more and more content and charging for it. The days of the internet wild west may be behind us.

[Pensioner]

People seem to be operating under a weird misapprehension that Richard Dawkins is an absentee landlord who only hears about what is going on in the forums when he gets reports from his brutal overseer, Black Josh. It's not true -- he is pretty savvy about this internet stuff, and can actually follow what you wild and crazy forum denizens say. And what he has been seeing is not pretty. Just look at this thread and the kinds of abuse people are heaping on Josh Timonen! I guarantee you that he is not browsing the forum here, or was browsing the RDF forums, and thinking, "Gee, these are exactly the kinds of people and comments I aim to encourage". I'd guess he's feeling glad to be rid of some of the riff-raff.

And at the same time, the RDF has lost some good people whose input has been and would be valuable. If those people weren't all baying at Josh in the current witchhunt, that is.

I speak from past experience with forum drama. Take some time and cool off. It's not that important. The people you're blaming really aren't out to hurt you (honestly, Josh is a good guy, his job is simply much larger than shepherding a forum, and those who hate him have really lost perspective), and if you show a little patience and tolerance, you might even be able to get them to help you out with some of your reasonable requests. I'm sure they actually like and respect many of the contributors and the general importance of the social aspect of the forums, but are reasonably concerned about the rather more vicious minority. What I see here doesn't help. There are some people here they would rather not see coming back to the RD forums. Can you guess why?

It's not because they're nasty vengeful control freaks, either. It might have more to do with the fact that they're human beings.

This description of Josh does not match my own experience with him, which I won't belabor here. Just keep in mind that Josh may present an image to celebrities like you and RD that is different than the way he treats people "below him." This is called Kiss Up - Kick Down Syndrome.

I agree with you. As an ex trade union official I have represented workers who have been bullied at work. The bully is such a nice chap to those who have power over them but to the lower orders they can be a tyrant. Maybe PZ should do some research into bulling at work.

[Bella Fortuna]

I'm a "celebrity" now? Heh.

Yeah you are, you were in that rather excellent movie "Expelled"

And you had your picture taken with me a few weeks ago, so you must be.

My gawd, who's that standing next to Bella?

Some nerd dude.

[Bella Fortuna]

I'm a "celebrity" now? Heh.

Yeah you are, you were in that rather excellent movie "Expelled"

And you had your picture taken with me a few weeks ago, so you must be.

You've grown a beard since your avatar picture was taken Bella?

I'm getting in touch with my inner Grizzly Adams.

[locutus7]

Maybe someone will call into The Atheist Experience TV show and mention this. I'll try to post something on their blog.

[pzmyers]

I'm a "celebrity" now? Heh.

Yeah you are, you were in that rather excellent movie "Expelled"

And you had your picture taken with me a few weeks ago, so you must be.

I stand corrected. I am now a star by association!