Dangerous Knowledge

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by Psi Wavefunction » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:56 pm

Ok, just watched it, was really good! :tup:

It seems that whatever it is that leads to great discoveries tends to often also lead to very sad, tragic lives. Perhaps, after all, our minds are set up to only deal with certainties, since that is a reasonable approximation of the world around us until you look further. I mean, for most of our evolutionary time, whether logic was omnipotent or not didn't really matter, and arguably for most people still doesn't. Again, there are things our mind really doesn't like dealing with, the nature of itself included.

The Boltzmann part reminded me of how fucking annoying it was is to have your laws and certainties chipped away at the deeper you go in your science education. Especially in chemistry, for me anyway. I learned that certain atoms combined together yield certain products. I learned some of those reactions, and they made perfect sense. And then those bastards dared to tell me that the reactions were actually equilibria, with the tendency to proceed to either side affected by a plethora of other conditions and factors. Ie, yes at 100 degrees water boils, but some of it also condenses. It's just that more particles escape the liquid form than come back in, and the higher the temperature (pressure comes into play as well), the more those particles tend to escape to the gas form and not come back. Tend. Everything in science tends to be a tendency.

And then you learn that electrons around an atom exist as a probability function, that is you can never pinpoint an electron at an exact place or exact time. And this probability distribution is INFINITE -- that is, an electron can literally be anywhere! But with a 95% chance of being inside what is termed an 'orbital'. That 95% is completely arbitrary, and drawn because it's just obligatory for us to work with something not so infinite, even if it really is. So where is the edge of things, really, if electron clouds are merely arbitrarily-cut-off portions of infinite probability distributions? What is matter? :doh:

Oh, error analysis was also annoying -- what do you mean, I can't actually measure anything precisely? My instrument shows blah, and blah it is! What's with this +/- error shit? Grrrr. (and now once you grasp the concept of error, it seems almost absurd that anyone could think their measurements are free of error!)

So now the water's edge no longer exists (for particles are always oscillating between liquid and gas forms at the boundary), the physical edge no longer exists, location can never be pinpointed. A giant pain in the ass, y'know. And then there's the little detail that you can never 'prove' anything in science. Man I have a pet peeve around people throwing around "My data proves..." in the scientific circles (usually beginning grad students or undergrads, but sometimes people who should know better too!) As you sink deeper and deeper into the huge pile of mess that is science, statistics becomes your only hope, like a crutch of some sort. Stats is all lies and BS, but it's mathematically disciplined lies. That's a little better, no?

Thus science education is basically a series of disappointments! And I probably have a loooong ways left to go. Thing is, with these kinds of personal intellectual 'revolutions' (mind you, leeching off the hard work and harsh lives of the geniuses who have uncovered them first), you don't realise anything's wrong until someone tells you. At which point you resist, much like the contemporaries of Cantor et al. Of course, you have the advantage of knowing those 'revolutions' are most likely true, whereas those contemporaries didn't. But after struggling with it for a while (I suspect most of the progress actually happens subconsciously as the idea ferments in your mind), it suddenly becomes so bloody obvious that you can barely remember believing otherwise in the first place! (probably a significant factor in the problems of science communication and education...)

Anyway, I'm gonna stop rambling. But that was good, thanks! :tup:

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by Psi Wavefunction » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:00 pm

Rum wrote:A bit too much of the 'this stuff will drive people mad' and not quite enough of the maths..not that my maths is up to it, but a bit more theory would have been preferred by yours truly.
Hey, at least they got this stuff out there to the public. Mathematics isn't enough to keep everyone interested, so throwing in a bit of insanity can help! :biggrin:

I, for one, kinda like stories of people going crazy :shifty: Love watching psychological thrillers as well; horror on a physical level is fake and boring, but horror on a psychological level is quite interesting to watch! Gets you more emotionally involved with the plot, which to me is a major part of reading/watching a story.

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by Animavore » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:05 pm

Psi Wavefunction wrote:Ok, just watched it, was really good! :tup:

:snip: lots of sciency bollox
Yes. I liked the lighting and music too.
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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by FBM » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:18 pm

Psi Wavefunction wrote:Ok, just watched it, was really good! :tup:

It seems that whatever it is that leads to great discoveries tends to often also lead to very sad, tragic lives. Perhaps, after all, our minds are set up to only deal with certainties, since that is a reasonable approximation of the world around us until you look further. I mean, for most of our evolutionary time, whether logic was omnipotent or not didn't really matter, and arguably for most people still doesn't. Again, there are things our mind really doesn't like dealing with, the nature of itself included.

The Boltzmann part reminded me of how fucking annoying it was is to have your laws and certainties chipped away at the deeper you go in your science education. Especially in chemistry, for me anyway. I learned that certain atoms combined together yield certain products. I learned some of those reactions, and they made perfect sense. And then those bastards dared to tell me that the reactions were actually equilibria, with the tendency to proceed to either side affected by a plethora of other conditions and factors. Ie, yes at 100 degrees water boils, but some of it also condenses. It's just that more particles escape the liquid form than come back in, and the higher the temperature (pressure comes into play as well), the more those particles tend to escape to the gas form and not come back. Tend. Everything in science tends to be a tendency.

And then you learn that electrons around an atom exist as a probability function, that is you can never pinpoint an electron at an exact place or exact time. And this probability distribution is INFINITE -- that is, an electron can literally be anywhere! But with a 95% chance of being inside what is termed an 'orbital'. That 95% is completely arbitrary, and drawn because it's just obligatory for us to work with something not so infinite, even if it really is. So where is the edge of things, really, if electron clouds are merely arbitrarily-cut-off portions of infinite probability distributions? What is matter? :doh:

Oh, error analysis was also annoying -- what do you mean, I can't actually measure anything precisely? My instrument shows blah, and blah it is! What's with this +/- error shit? Grrrr. (and now once you grasp the concept of error, it seems almost absurd that anyone could think their measurements are free of error!)

So now the water's edge no longer exists (for particles are always oscillating between liquid and gas forms at the boundary), the physical edge no longer exists, location can never be pinpointed. A giant pain in the ass, y'know. And then there's the little detail that you can never 'prove' anything in science. Man I have a pet peeve around people throwing around "My data proves..." in the scientific circles (usually beginning grad students or undergrads, but sometimes people who should know better too!) As you sink deeper and deeper into the huge pile of mess that is science, statistics becomes your only hope, like a crutch of some sort. Stats is all lies and BS, but it's mathematically disciplined lies. That's a little better, no?

Thus science education is basically a series of disappointments! And I probably have a loooong ways left to go. Thing is, with these kinds of personal intellectual 'revolutions' (mind you, leeching off the hard work and harsh lives of the geniuses who have uncovered them first), you don't realise anything's wrong until someone tells you. At which point you resist, much like the contemporaries of Cantor et al. Of course, you have the advantage of knowing those 'revolutions' are most likely true, whereas those contemporaries didn't. But after struggling with it for a while (I suspect most of the progress actually happens subconsciously as the idea ferments in your mind), it suddenly becomes so bloody obvious that you can barely remember believing otherwise in the first place! (probably a significant factor in the problems of science communication and education...)

Anyway, I'm gonna stop rambling. But that was good, thanks! :tup:

:woot: :woot: Fuck "knowledge"! If there's one thing that I've learned in life it's that learning never taught me nothing! And books is the worst! [/obligatory Yellowbeard ref]
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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by Psi Wavefunction » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:26 pm

Lord Percy Poncington wrote:
Psi Wavefunction wrote:Ok, just watched it, was really good! :tup:

:snip: lots of sciency bollox
Yes. I liked the lighting and music too.
I didn't really write anything sciencey; was all philosophical :dono:

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by AshtonBlack » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:45 pm

This sort of programme makes me satisfied with paying my TV licence fee.
Excellent programme.

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by FBM » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:49 pm

AshtonBlack wrote:This sort of programme makes me satisfied with paying my TV licence fee.
Excellent programme.
Whatever complaints people have about BBC, they sure as shit do produce a lot more deeply challenging shit than those ratings-hungry scavengers in the US. The occasional worthwhile PBS offering excepted, but they're pretty rare.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by AshtonBlack » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:52 pm

Flatulent Beaver Monitor wrote:
AshtonBlack wrote:This sort of programme makes me satisfied with paying my TV licence fee.
Excellent programme.
Whatever complaints people have about BBC, they sure as shit do produce a lot more deeply challenging shit than those ratings-hungry scavengers in the US. The occasional worthwhile PBS offering excepted, but they're pretty rare.
Yep, for every documentary like this we also get 10 trash programmes like "Cash in the Attic" or "Strictly Come Poncing."

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by FBM » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:01 pm

AshtonBlack wrote:Yep, for every documentary like this we also get 10 trash programmes like "Cash in the Attic" or "Strictly Come Poncing."
SSDD, then, eh? :roll:

















"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by FedUpWithFaith » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:39 pm

I just finished watching the show. It was good but a bit superficial. I guess you can't expect too much from a series meant for more public consumption. I also found myself wishing they'd included Gregory Chaitin, probably the most important mathematician of our time and the natural heir of Godel, Turing, and Cantor. Chaitin is more accepted by physicists than mathematicians because Chaitin has forced Godel down their throat pushing formal logic to pure exposition. He constructed an area of mathematics where in fact God does play dice, where mathematical truth is accidental and certain mathematical truths are true for no reason. This is an amazing result and in the days to come I am confident it will will be tied to the fundamental nature of the universe itself at a level deeper than current physical theories.

Another problem including Chaitin is that it would have introduced a mathematician who bucks the stereotype they reinforce, that the most brilliant mathematicians are nuts. Chaitin is, by all accounts, quite sane and a wonderful husband and father.

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by Rum » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:43 pm

FedUpWithFaith wrote:I just finished watching the show. It was good but a bit superficial. I guess you can't expect too much from a series meant for more public consumption. I also found myself wishing they'd included Gregory Chaitin, probably the most important mathematician of our time and the natural heir of Godel, Turing, and Cantor. Chaitin is more accepted by physicists than mathematicians because Chaitin has forced Godel down their throat pushing formal logic to pure exposition. He constructed an area of mathematics where in fact God does play dice, where mathematical truth is accidental and certain mathematical truths are true for no reason. This is an amazing result and in the days to come I am confident it will will be tied to the fundamental nature of the universe itself at a level deeper than current physical theories.

Another problem including Chaitin is that it would have introduced a mathematician who bucks the stereotype they reinforce, that the most brilliant mathematicians are nuts. Chaitin is, by all accounts, quite sane and a wonderful husband and father.
The question implied but not mentioned in the programme was does the maths make you nuts or does being nuts in a special way make the maths!

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by FedUpWithFaith » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:57 pm

Rum wrote:
FedUpWithFaith wrote:I just finished watching the show. It was good but a bit superficial. I guess you can't expect too much from a series meant for more public consumption. I also found myself wishing they'd included Gregory Chaitin, probably the most important mathematician of our time and the natural heir of Godel, Turing, and Cantor. Chaitin is more accepted by physicists than mathematicians because Chaitin has forced Godel down their throat pushing formal logic to pure exposition. He constructed an area of mathematics where in fact God does play dice, where mathematical truth is accidental and certain mathematical truths are true for no reason. This is an amazing result and in the days to come I am confident it will will be tied to the fundamental nature of the universe itself at a level deeper than current physical theories.

Another problem including Chaitin is that it would have introduced a mathematician who bucks the stereotype they reinforce, that the most brilliant mathematicians are nuts. Chaitin is, by all accounts, quite sane and a wonderful husband and father.
The question implied but not mentioned in the programme was does the maths make you nuts or does being nuts in a special way make the maths!
I think its fairly common knowledge that unusual brilliance (with extreme insight) in mathematics is correlated to various mental abnormalities. Certainly I've found brilliant mathematicians I've worked with to often live, work, and/or behave in a manner that would not be called "normal" in the conventional sense. But I have seen no evidence that there is anything about math that drives such men (it's usually men) nuts. They likely would have had problems no matter what.

My concerns are these. First, it is a stereotype. It is not destiny. There are plenty of brilliant well-adjusted mathematicians. Anybody who comes away with the implication that math drives people crazy could be discouraged from entering the profession. If I had a son with brilliant math proclivities I'd worry he might be discouraged after watching that show.

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by FBM » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:07 am

Watching the show didn't give me the impression that it was the field itself which drove people whacky, just those particular problems at those particular times and places. I don't think the same problems would have the same effects on many people today. The stories of the individuals have to be seen in context, I think. The extreme relgious conviction that one is specially chosen to receive a divine message and subsequently discovering that such is impossible, the background society that cherishes stability and certainty, etc. Goedel, Boltzman, etc, were working very much against the entrenched values of their societies, and that, it seems, had more to do with their madness than the work itself.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by Psi Wavefunction » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:14 am

Thing is, knowledge and talent are alienating. Intellectual progress means there are those who wouldn't understand you because they think differently. And the more one deviates from the intellectual mean, the less and less company they have socially, the less people they can communicate with. And this social alienation can drive people insane, and often does accompany the work. And to make great intellectual progress, to some extent you must be quite obsessed with your work, which may easily develop into some OCD-esque traits, which when combined with the natural alienation can lead to clinical madness. Thus, it's no surprise that many famous scientists (and artists and writers and musicians and...any people of abstract creative labour, really) go clinically insane and often end their lives rather tragically.

It's safest to be at the mean, like everyone else. Which, frankly, requires one to be a bit of a fucktard... :ddpan:

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Re: Dangerous Knowledge

Post by FBM » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:20 am

Psi Wavefunction wrote:Thing is, knowledge and talent are alienating. Intellectual progress means there are those who wouldn't understand you because they think differently. And the more one deviates from the intellectual mean, the less and less company they have socially, the less people they can communicate with. And this social alienation can drive people insane, and often does accompany the work. And to make great intellectual progress, to some extent you must be quite obsessed with your work, which may easily develop into some OCD-esque traits, which when combined with the natural alienation can lead to clinical madness. Thus, it's no surprise that many famous scientists (and artists and writers and musicians and...any people of abstract creative labour, really) go clinically insane and often end their lives rather tragically.

It's safest to be at the mean, like everyone else. Which, frankly, requires one to be a bit of a fucktard... :ddpan:
Or revel in solitude... :tea:

(not counting myself among the genuiss...geniuii...genu...extremely smart people, mind you.)
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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