Kids & religion..

[wolfréalt]

Was reading a thread about this yesterday but cant find it again so...........
My point is.... Not to teach your children your faith is immoral.!!
Because of the very nature of religion and religious beliefs, ie your total understanding of the Reason For & Nature of your existence, not to share this with your children would be tantamount to child abuse. If your view is (I'll use xtians for an example) that the result of accepting the "word" ,praying, attending services etc is everlesting life in heaven and the consequenses of not following the doctrine is eternal suffering, then who in their right mind would take this chance with their children.
I would love to see a world without religion but this is an example of something that, by its very nature cannot start with the children. It can only be done by adults who no longer believe, passing on their (non) beliefs. I've wanted to discuss this with R. Daw... from the first moment I heard him mention it and was going to start a discusion on RDN but got distracted by....well....YOU LOT. Any thoughts..???

[Animavore]

Shouldn't it be "YE LOT"?

[wolfréalt]

Shouldn't it be "YE LOT"?

I understand its meaning as an arcaic and vernacular form of you but....
Ye could mean a number of different things, for example..
An ancient Korean kingdom
An ancient Chinese city
A small town in Burma/Myanmar
and a county in China
so just to prevent ambiguities I used You....

[Animavore]

Actually it was merely a reference to the way Cork people talk.

[wolfréalt]

Gawdzilla called me a post whore. The fecker. So I'm only going to write with total and absolute rationality and care from here on. now leave my thread alone.....

[Animavore]

Sorry but derailings are customary here.

[klr]

Was reading a thread about this yesterday but cant find it again so...........
My point is.... Not to teach your children your faith is immoral.!!
Because of the very nature of religion and religious beliefs, ie your total understanding of the Reason For & Nature of your existence, not to share this with your children would be tantamount to child abuse. If your view is (I'll use xtians for an example) that the result of accepting the "word" ,praying, attending services etc is everlesting life in heaven and the consequenses of not following the doctrine is eternal suffering, then who in their right mind would take this chance with their children.
I would love to see a world without religion but this is an example of something that, by its very nature cannot start with the children. It can only be done by adults who no longer believe, passing on their (non) beliefs. I've wanted to discuss this with R. Daw... from the first moment I heard him mention it and was going to start a discusion on RDN but got distracted by....well....YOU LOT. Any thoughts..???

You're right, you've got to start with the adults. A lot of Irish parents today are lukewarm believers at best (worst?), but they still make sure their kids get religion. Part of this is pressure to get places in the primary school system, which is still largely controlled by the Catholic Church. Part of it is buying into Pascal's Wager (what if there is a God?), meaning that they go down the road you've described. Part of it is inertia, not thinking too much about doing things differently, let alone daring to do it.

There's also evidence to show that grandparents play a large part in making sure the kids are brought up with some religion. Often it's achieved by emotional blackmail - the parents of the children feel pressured by their parents, that they will somehow be letting them down, or offending them, if they go their own way on this. Then there is general social pressure to conform, although IMHO this is pressure is greatly overestimated.

[Rum]

Well religious people are hoisted by their own petards with this issue. Because they insist that the source of morality is their god (my distance from making this linkage grows by the day!), then you have a point. It would be 'immoral' of them not too if this was the only way we developed morality. We do learn by example too and if we live in a 'kind' family I suspect we are much more likely to behave that way whatever woo they spout.

The good news of course is that morality is not religion dependent nor are parents the only source from which we learn them. Socialisation is at least as important.

[Animavore]

Was reading a thread about this yesterday but cant find it again so...........
My point is.... Not to teach your children your faith is immoral.!!
Because of the very nature of religion and religious beliefs, ie your total understanding of the Reason For & Nature of your existence, not to share this with your children would be tantamount to child abuse. If your view is (I'll use xtians for an example) that the result of accepting the "word" ,praying, attending services etc is everlesting life in heaven and the consequenses of not following the doctrine is eternal suffering, then who in their right mind would take this chance with their children.
I would love to see a world without religion but this is an example of something that, by its very nature cannot start with the children. It can only be done by adults who no longer believe, passing on their (non) beliefs. I've wanted to discuss this with R. Daw... from the first moment I heard him mention it and was going to start a discusion on RDN but got distracted by....well....YOU LOT. Any thoughts..???

You're right, you've got to start with the adults. A lot of Irish parents today are lukewarm believers at best (worst?), but they still make sure their kids get religion. Part of this is pressure to get places in the primary school system, which is still largely controlled by the Catholic Church. Part of it is buying into Pascal's Wager (what if there is a God?), meaning that they go down the road you've described. Part of it is inertia, not thinking too much about doing things differently, let alone daring to do it.

There's also evidence to show that grandparents play a large part in making sure the kids are brought up with some religion. Often it's achieved by emotional blackmail - the parents of the children feel pressured by their parents, that they will somehow be letting them down, or offending them, if they go their own way on this. Then there is general social pressure to conform, although IMHO this is pressure is greatly overestimated.

That reminds me. I told me aul one there would be no Christening etc.... if I had kids and she said in a threatening voice ( ) You will!
Watch me ma. Just watch me.

[klr]

Was reading a thread about this yesterday but cant find it again so...........
My point is.... Not to teach your children your faith is immoral.!!
Because of the very nature of religion and religious beliefs, ie your total understanding of the Reason For & Nature of your existence, not to share this with your children would be tantamount to child abuse. If your view is (I'll use xtians for an example) that the result of accepting the "word" ,praying, attending services etc is everlesting life in heaven and the consequenses of not following the doctrine is eternal suffering, then who in their right mind would take this chance with their children.
I would love to see a world without religion but this is an example of something that, by its very nature cannot start with the children. It can only be done by adults who no longer believe, passing on their (non) beliefs. I've wanted to discuss this with R. Daw... from the first moment I heard him mention it and was going to start a discusion on RDN but got distracted by....well....YOU LOT. Any thoughts..???

You're right, you've got to start with the adults. A lot of Irish parents today are lukewarm believers at best (worst?), but they still make sure their kids get religion. Part of this is pressure to get places in the primary school system, which is still largely controlled by the Catholic Church. Part of it is buying into Pascal's Wager (what if there is a God?), meaning that they go down the road you've described. Part of it is inertia, not thinking too much about doing things differently, let alone daring to do it.

There's also evidence to show that grandparents play a large part in making sure the kids are brought up with some religion. Often it's achieved by emotional blackmail - the parents of the children feel pressured by their parents, that they will somehow be letting them down, or offending them, if they go their own way on this. Then there is general social pressure to conform, although IMHO this is pressure is greatly overestimated.

That reminds me. I told me aul one there would be no Christening etc.... if I had kids and she said in a threatening voice ( ) You will!
Watch me ma. Just watch me.

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Pressure is put on the parents by their parents and by other family members, and too often they give in. Without that, religion would be in decline much faster than it is.

BTW, I'm not going to any more christenings, ever. I don't care how many more nieces and nephews come out the factory door.

[wolfréalt]

The good news of course is that morality is not religion dependent .

I didnt mention morality in the sense of what a religion teaches, but in more absolute terms ie not giving your kids the very best you can. Because any parent witholding the "secret" of everlasting life & happiness from their child would be doing a great wrong, whether their religion instructs them to or not....

[Animavore]

Was reading a thread about this yesterday but cant find it again so...........
My point is.... Not to teach your children your faith is immoral.!!
Because of the very nature of religion and religious beliefs, ie your total understanding of the Reason For & Nature of your existence, not to share this with your children would be tantamount to child abuse. If your view is (I'll use xtians for an example) that the result of accepting the "word" ,praying, attending services etc is everlesting life in heaven and the consequenses of not following the doctrine is eternal suffering, then who in their right mind would take this chance with their children.
I would love to see a world without religion but this is an example of something that, by its very nature cannot start with the children. It can only be done by adults who no longer believe, passing on their (non) beliefs. I've wanted to discuss this with R. Daw... from the first moment I heard him mention it and was going to start a discusion on RDN but got distracted by....well....YOU LOT. Any thoughts..???

You're right, you've got to start with the adults. A lot of Irish parents today are lukewarm believers at best (worst?), but they still make sure their kids get religion. Part of this is pressure to get places in the primary school system, which is still largely controlled by the Catholic Church. Part of it is buying into Pascal's Wager (what if there is a God?), meaning that they go down the road you've described. Part of it is inertia, not thinking too much about doing things differently, let alone daring to do it.

There's also evidence to show that grandparents play a large part in making sure the kids are brought up with some religion. Often it's achieved by emotional blackmail - the parents of the children feel pressured by their parents, that they will somehow be letting them down, or offending them, if they go their own way on this. Then there is general social pressure to conform, although IMHO this is pressure is greatly overestimated.

That reminds me. I told me aul one there would be no Christening etc.... if I had kids and she said in a threatening voice ( ) You will!
Watch me ma. Just watch me.

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Pressure is put on the parents by their parents and by other family members, and too often they give in. Without that, religion would be in decline much faster than it is.

BTW, I'm not going to any more christenings, ever. I don't care how many more nieces and nephews come out the factory door.

I only went to my first nieces because I was godfather. I remember as I was walking around the altar 3 times with a candle, joking and laughing with my sister's friend (godmother) who was slagging the "poor little red-head kid", thinking This is the last time I ever do this.
The other 2 nieces I flat out said I'll go to the afters but I am not going into that church.

[Rum]

The good news of course is that morality is not religion dependent .

I didnt mention morality in the sense of what a religion teaches, but in more absolute terms ie not giving your kids the very best you can. Because any parent witholding the "secret" of everlasting life & happiness from their child would be doing a great wrong, whether their religion instructs them to or not....

OK, missed the point. And you are right of course. If you honestly believe that there is a wonderful eternal life to be had when you de it would be bad not to let your kids know! Of course the reality and finality of death does not really hit kids until around the age of 9 - 10, so you could save it for then.

[floppit]

I have a lot of faith in kids, given the tools they achieve a hell of a lot in a few small years. A world where religious people don't try to pass it on is never going to happen and yes, I do personally think there would be a cost to excluding kids if by some freak event it did.

But by far the majority of kids attend school and that's where there's a chance. Of course their will be some who don't get school - but that's a whole other issue and one which absolutely should be argued against. I think the net is amazing too, it's a new generation growing up with more access and networks than ever before. I watched a programme on the telly last week of a JW teen, home schooled and isolated but she had the web, and in turn had the tools to recognise and define her sexuality - not to mention the courage to tell her parents.

[charlou]

A teen of JW parents, flop ...