A 10 year old with balls.

[floppit]

I've just realised I'm a bit lost here.

The kid has just said gay people should have the same rights as straight folk and that he can't swear allegiance unless that becomes the case. That's correct isn't it?

If it is where does him seeing sex come into it? I say this because 'sex' is hardly a defining difference between gay and straight couples, plenty of straight couples take it up the back door! Plenty of gay men don't. And errrrr... I think the first objection was that a 10 yr old probably hasn't seen gay sex ergo surely it's reasonable to say it is done in private!

And how in the name of rabid anythings did it end up on anybody's 'plate' - talk about the murder of a metophor!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I've just realised I'm a bit lost here.

The kid has just said gay people should have the same rights as straight folk and that he can't swear allegiance unless that becomes the case. That's correct isn't it?

If it is where does him seeing sex come into it? I say this because 'sex' is hardly a defining difference between gay and straight couples, plenty of straight couples take it up the back door! Plenty of gay men don't. And errrrr... I think the first objection was that a 10 yr old probably hasn't seen gay sex ergo surely it's reasonable to say it is done in private!

And how in the name of rabid anythings did it end up on anybody's 'plate' - talk about the murder of a metophor!

He simply refuses to say "liberty and justice for all" exists here while some segments of the population are not granted equal rights. He's calling the pledge hypocritical.

[floppit]

He simply refuses to say "liberty and justice for all" exists here while some segments of the population are not granted equal rights. He's calling the pledge hypocritical.

That would still make sum up true though wouldn't it? Ie that unless it changed he feels he can't chant the national pledge?

[cursuswalker]

Most of these liberals who support gay rights have never seen gays in action. It's a rather disturbing, unsettling sight.

Now I don't support discrimination (freedom for all etc etc.), just saying most supporters (especially ten y/o kids) have no idea what they're actually talking about.

What ignorant shit! The WHOLE point about supporting equal rights for people of any sexuality is that ones own tastes are irrelevant and one is mature enough to support the right of others to act on theirs. This is why gay-men and lesbians are able to campaign together.

Your statement above appears to mean that this ten year old is way ahead of you in the maturity stakes.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

He simply refuses to say "liberty and justice for all" exists here while some segments of the population are not granted equal rights. He's calling the pledge hypocritical.

That would still make sum up true though wouldn't it? Ie that unless it changed he feels he can't chant the national pledge?

Oh, I was agreeing with you.

[angrychimp]

What ignorant shit! The WHOLE point about supporting equal rights for people of any sexuality is that ones own tastes are irrelevant and one is mature enough to support the right of others to act on theirs. This is why gay-men and lesbians are able to campaign together.

Your statement above appears to mean that this ten year old is way ahead of you in the maturity stakes.

Oh ffs walker.
I made the decision to support gay rights only after I learnt everything there was to know.
I didn't support gay rights when I was ten.
I hadn't reached puberty when I was ten.
I didn't have the life experience or the all the facts when I was ten.
The boy's 'opinion' may very well change when the above changes for him.

But hey, as long as he says what you want to hear, you don't care. Push the liberal agenda by any means necessary.

I'm so friggin tired of ppl using kids as their weapon of choice.

And once again, if the same boy had ranted the exact opposite you'd probably be crying foul? right?

[maiforpeace]

What ignorant shit! The WHOLE point about supporting equal rights for people of any sexuality is that ones own tastes are irrelevant and one is mature enough to support the right of others to act on theirs. This is why gay-men and lesbians are able to campaign together.

Your statement above appears to mean that this ten year old is way ahead of you in the maturity stakes.

Oh ffs walker.
I made the decision to support gay rights only after I learnt everything there was to know.
I didn't support gay rights when I was ten.
I hadn't reached puberty when I was ten.
I didn't have the life experience or the all the facts when I was ten.
The boy's 'opinion' may very well change when the above changes for him.

But hey, as long as he says what you want to hear, you don't care. Push the liberal agenda by any means necessary.

I'm so friggin tired of ppl using kids as their weapon of choice.

And once again, if the same boy had ranted the exact opposite you'd probably be crying foul? right?

There's a big difference in my opinion. In the case of children spouting off religious stuff, someone had to cram that story down their throat. None of it is first hand experience, it's all second hand stories told by a third person. In this particular case, this child could easily know the gay parents of one of their playmates, for example. They would see two people of the same sex caring for their own child in the same way his own straight parents are caring for him. It's not a big leap for a child his age to figure out the unfairness between his own parents being allowed to get married and his friends parents not being allowed to.

[Mysturji]

I find the idea of male homosexual sex disgusting. Just the way I am: hetero, and I make no apology for that.

But... (and this is the point I think angrychimp and I are both trying to make)

I also think Brussels sprouts are disgusting, but I DON'T think they should be illegal. I just don't want them on my plate.

What consenting adults do in private is nobody else's business and I honestly don't care.

So basically homosexuals should keep what they do private and indoors where as everyone else should be allowed to express themselves publicly and freely?

No.
Read it again.

I don't see any difference. You go on to say...

What consenting adults do in private is nobody else's business and I honestly don't care. But different people have different sensibilities.
Somebody mentioned abattoirs. There's occasionally a news story about neighbours complaining when someone's religious celebrations include slaughtering an animal on their front lawn. No-one is saying they're not allowed to eat meat, but some things are probably best done in private.

I also said "different people have different sensibilities."
Maybe I didn't express myself very well there.
Many people have an extreme dislike to seeing hetero kissing - or any display of affection - in public. Not saying that's right, but just suggesting be aware of your surroundings and don't upset the locals.

[Mysturji]

What?
I agree with everything else you said in that post, but I find that statement truly bizarre.
What the hell is a spare parent, how many coupons do you need collect to get one, and are batteries included?

What's not to understand - you keep a spare tyre, you know why you keep a spare tyre, you know people are not immortal.

What we have done is allowed and encouraged a close bond between the best two people we could imagine and our daughter, it enhances her extended family, it gives her another outlook on life - even at her current age she enjoys different things there to with us. My best friend was there when she was born and holds all the stories of our childhood. These things matter more than life insurance, more than money. No parent can be sure they will see their child to adulthood.

Like I said - I bet you have a spare tyre and I thinks kids matter more than avoiding a tow!

I had just never heard the term "spare parent" before.
Thanks for the explanation.

And how in the name of rabid anythings did it end up on anybody's 'plate' - talk about the murder of a metophor!

All metaphors flee before my metaphorical power! :twisted:
As the darkness flees before the dawn.

[floppit]

I find the idea of male homosexual sex disgusting. Just the way I am: hetero, and I make no apology for that.

But... (and this is the point I think angrychimp and I are both trying to make)

I also think Brussels sprouts are disgusting, but I DON'T think they should be illegal. I just don't want them on my plate.

What consenting adults do in private is nobody else's business and I honestly don't care.

So basically homosexuals should keep what they do private and indoors where as everyone else should be allowed to express themselves publicly and freely?

No.
Read it again.

I don't see any difference. You go on to say...

What consenting adults do in private is nobody else's business and I honestly don't care. But different people have different sensibilities.
Somebody mentioned abattoirs. There's occasionally a news story about neighbours complaining when someone's religious celebrations include slaughtering an animal on their front lawn. No-one is saying they're not allowed to eat meat, but some things are probably best done in private.

I also said "different people have different sensibilities."
Maybe I didn't express myself very well there.
Many people have an extreme dislike to seeing hetero kissing - or any display of affection - in public. Not saying that's right, but just suggesting be aware of your surroundings and don't upset the locals.

Mysturji - what the 10yr old is quoted as saying is very salient:

"I've grown up with a lot of people and I'm good friends with a lot of people who are gay and I think they should have the rights all people should, and I'm not going to swear that they do," the ten-year-old Phillips said.

He talks here in reference to personhood not sex, and the former is the salient issue regarding rights - not sex. As the issue does not ACTUALLY revolve around sexual practices why would being prepubescent matter? My LO has already attended her first gay wedding - thankfully here the law has eased a little but only in recent years. Without that change in law I can't imagine any intelligent 10 yr old who knew they were not allowed to marry not perceiving the inequality, and it is that inequality that the boy challenges.

I (personally) pro adults passing on their values to children - ok, sometimes if they're right wing fascists it's a pain in the arse but what's the alternative? Do we stop teaching children to share? Stop telling them it's not ok to bite that little boy because he has the toy you want? We do teach our values, daily - every time I tell my baby girl to wait while to allow someone elderly through a door first, every time I give her a little toy to pass on and I have NO intention of stopping this part of her education. Eventually once her language kicks in for real ethics and why I have taught the behaviour will come into it BECAUSE if I don't credit her with the 'why' then I end up falling back to 'Because I said so' which does nothing to aid individual reasoning or open debate.

As for pushing for fame - if I KNEW this was at the parents request I would be dead set against it, but I find it at least believable that it can come from a 10 yr old. If it was the opposing opinion I would be more suspicious, but that's not without reason - the opposing view is anti rights and people that believe they should fight against equal rights are less likely to endow rights of choice on their children. In other words equality and views on equality exist both inside and outside the home, where someone fights for supremacy and unreasoned authority outwardly I have no expectation they should oppose that approach in their own home.

All that said - there is something about activists that pressure by default those around them to join their cause.

[charlou]

As for pushing for fame - if I KNEW this was at the parents request I would be dead set against it, but I find it at least believable that it can come from a 10 yr old. If it was the opposing opinion I would be more suspicious, but that's not without reason - the opposing view is anti rights and people that believe they should fight against equal rights are less likely to endow rights of choice on their children. In other words equality and views on equality exist both inside and outside the home, where someone fights for supremacy and unreasoned authority outwardly I have no expectation they should oppose that approach in their own home.

Yes! Thank you for articulating this point so well.

[cursuswalker]

But hey, as long as he says what you want to hear, you don't care. Push the liberal agenda by any means necessary.

I'm so friggin tired of ppl using kids as their weapon of choice.

What is your issue with the "liberal agenda", seeing as you said you support gay rights? And I still don't understand why a 10 year old can't see unequal treatment as being unfair.

[angrychimp]

What is your issue with the "liberal agenda", seeing as you said you support gay rights?

The agenda aims to achieve honourable things, but the ends don't justify the means.

And I still don't understand why a 10 year old can't see unequal treatment as being unfair.

I already answered that question.

They would see two people of the same sex caring for their own child in the same way his own straight parents are caring for him. It's not a big leap for a child his age to figure out the unfairness between his own parents being allowed to get married and his friends parents not being allowed to.

But the marriage issue is a little more complex than "Hey that's not fair". He needs to learn why most people don't see marriage as just a legal issue.

[floppit]

But the marriage issue is a little more complex than "Hey that's not fair". He needs to learn why most people don't see marriage as just a legal issue.

Children do see marriage, whether a successful one or not many (albeit not all) see it in their own homes and I should think by far the majority see it around friends or relatives. You're working on the assumption he does not understand that marriage is more than legal, that I child cannot comprehend the bond between to adult partners - I would argue that this assumption is unfounded. None of us could argue that we fully understand every aspect of every marriage but we begin our learning process young, you don't have to be very old to appreciate what a cuddle means, to watch people sharing tasks and decisions, to see 2 not 1 person interested in parents night, to watch games played and tv talked about. I'm trying to imagine a marriage where sex trumped all of those things and I can't.

I think there is every possibility that a ten year old thinks it isn't fair BECAUSE he appreciates marriage is more than a legal issue.

[angrychimp]

Children do see marriage, whether a successful one or not many (albeit not all) see it in their own homes and I should think by far the majority see it around friends or relatives. You're working on the assumption he does not understand that marriage is more than legal, that I child cannot comprehend the bond between to adult partners - I would argue that this assumption is unfounded. None of us could argue that we fully understand every aspect of every marriage but we begin our learning process young, you don't have to be very old to appreciate what a cuddle means, to watch people sharing tasks and decisions, to see 2 not 1 person interested in parents night, to watch games played and tv talked about. I'm trying to imagine a marriage where sex trumped all of those things and I can't.

I think there is every possibility that a ten year old thinks it isn't fair BECAUSE he appreciates marriage is more than a legal issue.

He understands love and he knows the adults have something called a marriage but did he actually sit down and read through the history of marriage? The cultural aspects, the traditionalists and the religious ethos that surrounds it?