Italy school crucifixes 'barred'

[klr]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8340411.stm

Italy school crucifixes 'barred'

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled against the use of crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.

It said the practice violated the right of parents to educate their children as they saw fit, and ran counter to the child's right to freedom of religion.

The case was brought by an Italian mother, Soile Lautsi, who wants to give her children a secular education.

But the ruling has sparked anger in the largely Catholic country, with one politician calling the move "shameful".

The Strasbourg court found that: "The compulsory display of a symbol of a given confession in premises used by the public authorities... restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions."

It also restricted the "right of children to believe or not to believe", the seven judges ruling on the case said in a statement quoted by AFP news agency.

'Italian tradition'

Mrs Lautsi complained to the European court that her children had to attend a public school in northern Italy that had crucifixes in every room.

She was awarded 5,000 euros ($7,400; £4,500) in damages.

But many politicians in Italy have reacted angrily.

Education Minister Mariastella Gelmini said the crucifix was a "symbol of our tradition", and not a mark of Catholicism.

One government minister called the ruling "shameful", while another said that Europe was forgetting its Christian heritage.

The government says it will appeal against the decision. The Vatican says it will study the ruling before issuing a comment.

The BBC's Duncan Kennedy in Rome says that it is customary in Italy to see crucifixes in public buildings, including schools, despite the constitution saying that there should be a separation of church and state.

The law requiring crucifixes to be hung in schools dates back to the 1920s.

Although a revised accord between the Vatican and the Italian government ended Catholicism's position as the state religion in 1984, the crucifix law has never been repealed.

Some conservatives have already complained about schools dropping nativity plays to avoid upsetting Muslim children.

[Trolldor]

"Part of our heritage"
Sounds familiar, no? Wonder what they'd say if you told them Mussolini was part of their heritage as well, and they should have photos of him in every classroom.

[The Dawktor]

excellent news!!!

[Pappa]

"Part of our heritage"
Sounds familiar, no? Wonder what they'd say if you told them Mussolini was part of their heritage as well, and they should have photos of him in every classroom.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Just fucking lovely. Now the rate of vampire attacks in Italian Schools is going to SOAR! Don't these people every consider the consequences of their actions? I blame the liberal media. I blame the growing anti-American attitude among atheists and godless heathens everywhere. I blame Darwin. [/Beck]

[Faithfree]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8340411.stm

Italy school crucifixes 'barred'

[charlou]

Some conservatives have already complained about schools dropping nativity plays to avoid upsetting Muslim children.

Upsetting Muslim children???

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

Children are children, ffs! Keep religion out of it because it's not appropriate in schools, not because one sort will upset another sort.


A strongly indoctrinated christian culture like that of Italy eventually seeing the wisdom of letting go of such a tradition would be real progress. I hope this ruling holds and is enforced.

[klr]

Some conservatives have already complained about schools dropping nativity plays to avoid upsetting Muslim children.

Upsetting Muslim children???

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

Children are children, ffs! Keep religion out of it because it's not appropriate in schools, not because one sort will upset another sort.


A strongly indoctrinated christian culture like that of Italy eventually seeing the wisdom of letting go of such a tradition would be real progress. I hope this ruling holds and is enforced.

Actually, there is a long tradition of secularism in Italy going back to at least the 19th century, despite all the obvious Catholic influence.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Some conservatives have already complained about schools dropping nativity plays to avoid upsetting Muslim children.

Upsetting Muslim children???

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

Children are children, ffs! Keep religion out of it because it's not appropriate in schools, not because one sort will upset another sort.


A strongly indoctrinated christian culture like that of Italy eventually seeing the wisdom of letting go of such a tradition would be real progress. I hope this ruling holds and is enforced.

Actually, there is a long tradition of secularism in Italy going back to at least the 19th century, despite all the obvious Catholic influence.

I lived in Sicily for three years in the mid-70s and I found that the women were religious and the men weren't, to make a sweeping generalization.

[klr]

Some conservatives have already complained about schools dropping nativity plays to avoid upsetting Muslim children.

Upsetting Muslim children???

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

Children are children, ffs! Keep religion out of it because it's not appropriate in schools, not because one sort will upset another sort.


A strongly indoctrinated christian culture like that of Italy eventually seeing the wisdom of letting go of such a tradition would be real progress. I hope this ruling holds and is enforced.

Actually, there is a long tradition of secularism in Italy going back to at least the 19th century, despite all the obvious Catholic influence.

I lived in Sicily for three years in the mid-70s and I found that the women were religious and the men weren't, to make a sweeping generalization.

That generalization holds true in a lot of place ... generally. I know it's been discussed before, certainly at RD.net: Why are women often more religious, despite usually being second-class citizens under it?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Some conservatives have already complained about schools dropping nativity plays to avoid upsetting Muslim children.

Upsetting Muslim children???

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

Children are children, ffs! Keep religion out of it because it's not appropriate in schools, not because one sort will upset another sort.


A strongly indoctrinated christian culture like that of Italy eventually seeing the wisdom of letting go of such a tradition would be real progress. I hope this ruling holds and is enforced.

Actually, there is a long tradition of secularism in Italy going back to at least the 19th century, despite all the obvious Catholic influence.

I lived in Sicily for three years in the mid-70s and I found that the women were religious and the men weren't, to make a sweeping generalization.

That generalization holds true in a lot of place ... generally. I know it's been discussed before, certainly at RD.net: Why are women often more religious, despite usually being second-class citizens under it?

The simple answer is that women were traditionally the only ones with time to be religious. The men were too busy making a living for their families to do much more than turn up at church on Sunday. There is a lovely quote in Inherit The Wind, when a prospective juror is asked if he is a religious man, he replies (paraphrased), "I don't rightly know. I never thunk about it that much. I'm always too busy to think about religion. My wife is though. She's real religious. She's religious enough for the both of us!"

[charlou]

That generalization holds true in a lot of place ... generally. I know it's been discussed before, certainly at RD.net: Why are women often more religious, despite usually being second-class citizens under it?

Anne Summers' book, Damned Whores and God's Police, looks at the Australian female cultural perspective and has some interesting ideas that might shed some light on this question.

[Trolldor]

Must get that book then. Not many books on Australian culture that go beyond "ZOMG indigenous" or "ZOMG post-war Vets" or "ZOMG English Colonials"

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...Wonder what they'd say if you told them Mussolini was part of their heritage as well, and they should have photos of him in every classroom.

Many would probably go along with it. Unfortunately Mussolini is far less vilified in modern Italy than Hitler is in Germany.

[JimC]

The ruling may not lead anywhere... this link

ITALY will ignore an ''unreal'' European court ruling that bans crucifixes from state-run schools as it appeals against the decision, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi says.

''It's not binding,'' Mr Berlusconi said of the ruling after a cabinet meeting on Friday. ''Whatever the outcome of the appeal, there's no obligatory force to the decision.''

Last week's European Court of Human Rights ruling stemmed from a 2006 complaint by a woman who said crosses in her children's classrooms violated the way she wanted to raise them.

The court said the crosses ''restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions, and the right of children to believe or not to believe''.

According to the rules of the court, member states must respect final rulings. Last week's decision is not yet final.

The Government's appeal would be reviewed by a panel of judges, according to a court spokeswoman.

If the appeal is rejected, the current ruling becomes final. If the appeal is accepted, a 17-judge chamber will review the case and its decision would be binding, the spokeswoman said.

Mind you, I am not so sure about trans-national courts interfering in the internal affairs of sovereign states (no matter that I might agree with the principle), unless there were dire reasons indeed...