Can religion ever really be blamed?

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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by floppit » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:36 am

Religion says that no matter who you are if you believe these things and do these things then you are part of the "us" and hold out the promise that one day you will have a perfect life.
Have you ever read or watched much about the Chinese cultural revolution? They did pretty much the same thing without any need to justify it by religion - in fact the strength of their belief that religion was to blame for many of the (very real) ills they had faced in the past led to it's own despotic acts of violence.
Add in a religious leader or a leader using religion who tells people that committing certain acts, which would be considered crimes or atrocities under any other circumstances, will please a certain deity, and you have the makings of a horrific event. Religion makes it easier for humans to justify actions such as war, rape, murder, genocide, clinic bombings, denying medical treatment, treating women and children as possessions, and a whole list of other things. So yes, religion can really be blamed.
If you look closely at where these acts take place they cluster around already existent subjugation, poverty, powerlessness, poor education, low life expectancy, and being under attack. Of course there are exceptions, but then a certain level of crime exists the world over but create the context outlined above and religious zeal thrives. Look at Palestine and the number of suicide bombings there, it's too easy to say this is caused by their religion and not take into account the fight over land and resources - not to mention the relative powerlessness of one of the sides involved. I'm not denying that there exist suicide bombers that actually have an otherwise comparatively easy life, like the London bombers - but where life is easier there are less and crime exists even in the easiest of lives so I would expect some extremes just because some folk are bonkers (not to mention we were engaged in a war at the time and had killed 10000's that they considered 'their people')!

Regarding social inequality such as the way women and children are treated, the acts are appalling and NOTHING should remove the culpability of those committing the acts, if the focus of blame shifts from societies and individual supporting suppression to 'religion' how does that help ensure we continue to hold the doers to account? Additionally, states that have rejected religion such as China 40 yrs ago still contain social horrors (abandoning/infanticide of baby girls). Poverty, suppression, desperation, lack of education, all seem more reliable as markers of what causes these traits in people than religion.
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Thinking Aloud » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:12 am

Can religion ever really be blamed?

Perhaps if you replace "religion" with "dogma" then we're getting closer to the truth. Then you can see how things like the Chinese Cultural Revolution, or any other similarly dogmatic cultural enforcement plays to exactly the same rules, justifying what one would normally find abhorrent in support of the ideal.

Can dogma ever really be blamed?

All the time!

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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Ayaan » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:18 am

floppit wrote:
Religion says that no matter who you are if you believe these things and do these things then you are part of the "us" and hold out the promise that one day you will have a perfect life.
Have you ever read or watched much about the Chinese cultural revolution? They did pretty much the same thing without any need to justify it by religion - in fact the strength of their belief that religion was to blame for many of the (very real) ills they had faced in the past led to it's own despotic acts of violence.
Add in a religious leader or a leader using religion who tells people that committing certain acts, which would be considered crimes or atrocities under any other circumstances, will please a certain deity, and you have the makings of a horrific event. Religion makes it easier for humans to justify actions such as war, rape, murder, genocide, clinic bombings, denying medical treatment, treating women and children as possessions, and a whole list of other things. So yes, religion can really be blamed.
If you look closely at where these acts take place they cluster around already existent subjugation, poverty, powerlessness, poor education, low life expectancy, and being under attack. Of course there are exceptions, but then a certain level of crime exists the world over but create the context outlined above and religious zeal thrives. Look at Palestine and the number of suicide bombings there, it's too easy to say this is caused by their religion and not take into account the fight over land and resources - not to mention the relative powerlessness of one of the sides involved. I'm not denying that there exist suicide bombers that actually have an otherwise comparatively easy life, like the London bombers - but where life is easier there are less and crime exists even in the easiest of lives so I would expect some extremes just because some folk are bonkers (not to mention we were engaged in a war at the time and had killed 10000's that they considered 'their people')!

Regarding social inequality such as the way women and children are treated, the acts are appalling and NOTHING should remove the culpability of those committing the acts, if the focus of blame shifts from societies and individual supporting suppression to 'religion' how does that help ensure we continue to hold the doers to account? Additionally, states that have rejected religion such as China 40 yrs ago still contain social horrors (abandoning/infanticide of baby girls). Poverty, suppression, desperation, lack of education, all seem more reliable as markers of what causes these traits in people than religion.
Religion is not the only factor, but it is one. I think TA is on the right track when he says it's dogma that's the problem, no matter what it's source.
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by klr » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:29 am

As I always like to say: Political ideologies don't have a very long shelf-life. You can't make people want to die for the sake of a better future for more than a generation or two. Pretty soon they wise up. Now religion on the other hand ... :ddpan:
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:42 am

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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by floppit » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:00 pm

Gawdzilla - my sound card is knackered so youtube is lost on me, the text seemed to just say the bible is fiction, something I agree with but I'm not sure how it's relevant to whether world religions are to blame for the people's behaviour that follow them. Maybe the voice over made that clearer.

TA - does it count as dogma if I say 'there's no god' and admit short of a bloody amazing miracle or brain damage I'm unlikely to change my mind, both are true but I don't 'feel' dogmatic. :levi:
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:07 pm

floppit wrote:Gawdzilla - my sound card is knackered so youtube is lost on me, the text seemed to just say the bible is fiction, something I agree with but I'm not sure how it's relevant to whether world religions are to blame for the people's behaviour that follow them. Maybe the voice over made that clearer.
The video goes for the throat of the believers in the buybull. Challenges them to question whether or not they should be taking it to heart, and asks them if they would really implement ALL the rules in the book. Peripheral to the main discourse here, but somewhat relevant in my view at least. :tup:
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by floppit » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:03 pm

Ok - I get the relevance, thanks for that. Doesn't it do more to support my original premise though? After all if followers don't actually know the religion how can the religion be responsible for their less savoury behaviour?
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:07 pm

floppit wrote:Ok - I get the relevance, thanks for that. Doesn't it do more to support my original premise though? After all if followers don't actually know the religion how can the religion be responsible for their less savoury behaviour?
Because they do things in the "name of God". Poorly indoctrinated in dogma is still indoctrinated in dogma.
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by floppit » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:19 pm

So it boils down to us blaming what they blame? I think we would probably all agree it's a piss poor excuse and does nothing to justify harmful acts. Surely though if it is really to blame it ought to be fair justification, after all being indoctrinated is a little outside of a person's own choice.
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:22 pm

floppit wrote:So it boils down to us blaming what they blame? I think we would probably all agree it's a piss poor excuse and does nothing to justify harmful acts. Surely though if it is really to blame it ought to be fair justification, after all being indoctrinated is a little outside of a person's own choice.
So, the Nazis were blameless?
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by floppit » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:27 pm

Definitely not! My contention is that the indoctrination follows from human behaviour, that it's people not religions (or despotic political viewpoints) that ought to be blamed, rather that it is down to people's own desire to reason for themself or their desire to take shortcuts, to spread their beliefs, to coerce others to share them, that is to blame for things like war - things often blamed on religion.
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:29 pm

floppit wrote:Definitely not! My contention is that the indoctrination follows from human behaviour, that it's people not religions (or despotic political viewpoints) that ought to be blamed, rather that it is down to people's own desire to reason for themself or their desire to take shortcuts, to spread their beliefs, to coerce others to share them, that is to blame for things like war - things often blamed on religion.
Nazism was a religion, "the cult of the Aryan". I've spoken with Jews that were swept up in the Nazi craze, to the point of wanting to join the Hitlerjugend. They were indoctrinated in the same way as one would instill religious beliefs. In this case, it's "nuture" over "nature".
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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Thinking Aloud » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:35 pm

floppit wrote:TA - does it count as dogma if I say 'there's no god' and admit short of a bloody amazing miracle or brain damage I'm unlikely to change my mind, both are true but I don't 'feel' dogmatic. :levi:
To quote wiki's description:
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.
(My bold)

The difference between your statement and a dogma is that you do admit that, in the event of a "bloody amazing miracle" you might change your mind. A dogmatic view would mean that, even in the event of massive evidence to the contrary, you would still hold your view.

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Re: Can religion ever really be blamed?

Post by Ayaan » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:51 pm

floppit wrote:Definitely not! My contention is that the indoctrination follows from human behaviour, that it's people not religions (or despotic political viewpoints) that ought to be blamed, rather that it is down to people's own desire to reason for themself or their desire to take shortcuts, to spread their beliefs, to coerce others to share them, that is to blame for things like war - things often blamed on religion.
Religion is one of many dogmas that can motivate people's behavior. Many religions have the built in promise of an afterlife that motivate people in a way other dogma's can't. Speaking from personal experience, it is a very powerful thing. People may take the actions, but dogma gives them the justification when nothing else can.
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