Suicide woman allowed to die....

[The Dawktor]

There was a test case recently and the judge said that when assisting in euthanasia he would not expect a prosecution unless there were suspicions of an ulterior motive,But that might have been just in scotland we have different laws .

The trouble is that you would probably have to be prosecuted to prove your motive was honourable!

[Feck]

There was a test case recently and the judge said that when assisting in euthanasia he would not expect a prosecution unless there were suspicions of an ulterior motive,But that might have been just in scotland we have different laws .

The trouble is that you would probably have to be prosecuted to prove your motive was honourable!

I think he was trying to say that no prosecutions should be brought before a court unless the circumstances were exceptional.

[The Dawktor]

There was a test case recently and the judge said that when assisting in euthanasia he would not expect a prosecution unless there were suspicions of an ulterior motive,But that might have been just in scotland we have different laws .

The trouble is that you would probably have to be prosecuted to prove your motive was honourable!

I think he was trying to say that no prosecutions should be brought before a court unless the circumstances were exceptional.

Sorry Feck- you're right- the trouble is that knowing our glorious legal system- because I pushed my wife's wheelchair to the plane and into the Dignitas office- I'd probably still have to be arrested etc etc and go through stress+++++ BEFORE the DPP decided NOT to prosecute.

Sorry- rumours of me taking my ex-wife to dignitas are purely hypothetical!

[Pappa]

Hmm.... that strikes me as contradictory with the illegality of suicide. Very strange.

Suicide is not illegal in the UK. It is not a crime to kill oneself. It is a crime to assist a person to commit suicide.

It is a crime to attempt to kill oneself though, and as feck said, makes you liable for sectioning under the Mental Health Act.

I don't think suicide should be illegal if a person can demonstratively be shown to have made an informed decision to do so, but a living will is hardly proof of that. Perhaps several sessions with an appropriately trained couincellor or psychiatrists.

Anyway, this strikes me as allowing suicide by the back door. If we want to allow suicide, then surely we should amend the Mental Health Act instead.

It would appear that commuting suicide and attempting to commit suicide are not illegal in England and Wales and have not been since 1961.

England and Wales

Suicide (and thus also attempted suicide) was illegal under English Law but ceased to be an offence with the passing of the Suicide Act 1961; the same Act makes it an offence to assist a suicide. While the simple act of suicide is lawful the consequences of committing suicide might turn an individual event into an unlawful act, as in the case of Reeves v Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis [2000] 1 AC 360 [3], where a man in police custody hanged himself and was held equally liable with the police (a cell door defect enabled the hanging) for the loss suffered by his widow; the practical effect was to reduce the police damages liability by 50%. In 2009, the House of Lords ruled that the law concerning the treatment of people who accompanied those who committed assisted suicide was unclear, following Debbie Purdy's case that this lack of clarity was a breach of her human rights. (In her case, as a sufferer from multiple sclerosis, she wanted to know whether her husband would be prosecuted for accompanying her abroad where she wished eventually to commit assisted suicide.) As a result, this law is expected to be revised.[4]

From here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Act_1961

Hmmm.... but attempted suicide is still grounds for sectioning under the Mental Health Act, right?

[Feck]

"danger to yourself or others" yep

[Rum]

I was an 'approved' social worker under the mental health act lots of years ago and I used to be part of the system for sectioning people. It took a GP, a psychiatrist and myself to sign off the admission. It was a horrible job and I moved on after two years of it.

I was once asked to visit a guy where the GP and the psychiatrist had signed the papers and assumed I would rubber stamp my bit. Well I visited him and he told me the most terrible story about how he had embezzled his company, had been caught and how he had lost all his friends and his wife had left with the kids and he was going to have to sell the house - a very nice one. He was really really depressed, but I was not of the opinion he was 'sectionable' by the criteria of the day - i.e. mentally ill and a danger to himself or others and I refused to sign.

He went in voluntarily a couple of days later and a couple of days after that he jumped into the water in an elevated water towerr on the grounds and killed himself.

Terribly difficult to call.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

The woman in the OP attempted suicide due to depression. This is a temporary (although often long-term) mental condition. Was it reasonable to assume that she was rational when she made the suicide attempt and wrote that 'living will'? I am not convinced. I have known a few people that seriously attempted suicide while depressed but went on to regret that action and be happy that they survived. Personally, i think that the doctors should have ignored her letter on the grounds that it was not written while in a sound state of mind - I doubt that any court in the land would have prosecuted them.

It might seem like catch-22 but anyone that tries to kill themselves that is not suffering from a debilitating, incurable terminal illness is by definition not of sound mind and incapable of making an informed decision about refusing treatment. Making the doctors in this case de facto accessories to her suicide is a worrying precedent. I think the law should be made very clear on this point. There is a huge difference between a terminally ill patient insisting on palliative care only and a physically healthy but temporarily deranged person insisting on the same.

[The Dawktor]

Terribly difficult to call.

Rum- when, eventually, I meet you- we'll share our nightmare stories!

[Rum]

Terribly difficult to call.

Rum- when, eventually, I meet you- we'll share our nightmare stories!

Make mine a double! ...oh you don't drink! I'll have yours too!

[CJ]

Hmm.... that strikes me as contradictory with the illegality of suicide. Very strange.

Suicide is not illegal in the UK. It is not a crime to kill oneself. It is a crime to assist a person to commit suicide.

It is a crime to attempt to kill oneself though, and as feck said, makes you liable for sectioning under the Mental Health Act.

I don't think suicide should be illegal if a person can demonstratively be shown to have made an informed decision to do so, but a living will is hardly proof of that. Perhaps several sessions with an appropriately trained couincellor or psychiatrists.

Anyway, this strikes me as allowing suicide by the back door. If we want to allow suicide, then surely we should amend the Mental Health Act instead.

It would appear that commuting suicide and attempting to commit suicide are not illegal in England and Wales and have not been since 1961.

England and Wales

Suicide (and thus also attempted suicide) was illegal under English Law but ceased to be an offence with the passing of the Suicide Act 1961; the same Act makes it an offence to assist a suicide. While the simple act of suicide is lawful the consequences of committing suicide might turn an individual event into an unlawful act, as in the case of Reeves v Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis [2000] 1 AC 360 [3], where a man in police custody hanged himself and was held equally liable with the police (a cell door defect enabled the hanging) for the loss suffered by his widow; the practical effect was to reduce the police damages liability by 50%. In 2009, the House of Lords ruled that the law concerning the treatment of people who accompanied those who committed assisted suicide was unclear, following Debbie Purdy's case that this lack of clarity was a breach of her human rights. (In her case, as a sufferer from multiple sclerosis, she wanted to know whether her husband would be prosecuted for accompanying her abroad where she wished eventually to commit assisted suicide.) As a result, this law is expected to be revised.[4]

From here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Act_1961

Hmmm.... but attempted suicide is still grounds for sectioning under the Mental Health Act, right?

No idea. The Dawkter may have the answer to that.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Hmmm.... but attempted suicide is still grounds for sectioning under the Mental Health Act, right?

No idea. The Dawkter may have the answer to that.

I think you'll find that even expressing the desire to commit suicide would be deemed adequate reason to relieve a person of their liberties even if that person has made no attempt on their own life or threatened / endangered another person.

[Rum]

Hmmm.... but attempted suicide is still grounds for sectioning under the Mental Health Act, right?

No idea. The Dawkter may have the answer to that.

I think you'll find that even expressing the desire to commit suicide would be deemed adequate reason to relieve a person of their liberties even if that person has made no attempt on their own life or threatened / endangered another person.

I think that a decision to commit suicide can be rational. I would also suggest it is culturally relative. Traditional Japanese culture expected deep personal shame to be dealt with by it after all. Were they all 'insane'?

[The Dawktor]

Hmmm.... but attempted suicide is still grounds for sectioning under the Mental Health Act, right?

No idea. The Dawkter may have the answer to that.

I think you'll find that even expressing the desire to commit suicide would be deemed adequate reason to relieve a person of their liberties even if that person has made no attempt on their own life or threatened / endangered another person.

I think that a decision to commit suicide can be rational. I would also suggest it is culturally relative. Traditional Japanese culture expected deep personal shame to be dealt with by it after all. Were they all 'insane'?

+1

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I think that the Japanese are insane by definition. I cite Hello Kitty as all the example needed.

[charlou]

I advocate the right to suicide to end prolonged suffering. I think prolonged suffering includes both physical and mental suffering. From the article I gather this woman endured mental suffering. I advocate her right to end her own suffering, just as I would advocate the right for a person who suffers physically to suicide.

I also philosophically accept a person's right to suicide, generally ... that's a tougher one to accept in reality, but there it is.