Suicide woman allowed to die....

[The Dawktor]

From a meical ethics point of view- this is a huge change in the UK- I cannot really comment in a public part of the forum- but how does this story take you?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/62486 ... sault.html

Suicide woman allowed to die because doctors feared saving her would be assault
Doctors allowed a young woman, Kerrie Wooltorton, to kill herself because she had signed a “living will” that meant they could have been prosecuted if they intervened to save her life.

By Rebecca Smith, Aislinn Laing and Kate Devlin
Published: 10:33PM BST 30 Sep 2009

Kerrie Wooltorton handed doctors a letter saying she Photo: ALBANPIX
Miss Wooltorton, 26, who was suffering depression over her inability to have a child, drank poison at home and called an ambulance. However, she remained conscious and handed doctors a letter saying she wanted medical staff only to make her comfortable and not to try to save her life.

Doctors said her wishes were “abundantly clear” and although it was a “horrible thing” there had been no alternative but to let her die.


It is thought to be the first time someone has used a living will to commit suicide. The documents are more commonly associated with patients who are terminally ill and want to refuse treatment.

Miss Wooltorton’s family have since criticised the doctors, saying they should have intervened to save her.

The case will revive the “right to die” debate days after new guidelines on assisted suicide were published, saying those who help terminally ill patients to die are unlikely to face prosecution unless they stand to gain financially.

So-called living wills – or advance directives – allow patients to set out what treatment they do not want should they become seriously ill. They were introduced following the 2005 Mental Capacity Act.

The General Medical Council has told doctors that failure to comply with the directives could lead to them being struck off.

Experts said that before the new laws came in, doctors faced with a similar case to Miss Wooltorton’s would have been likely to insist the patient be treated.

Doctors debating the case online said her history of mental illness could cast doubt on her ability to refuse treatment. Some argued it was not uncommon for people who attempt suicide to refuse treatment, only to change their minds later.

Campaigners gave warning that living wills were not designed for patients who wanted to commit suicide and questioned whether someone who had repeatedly tried to kill themselves had the capacity to refuse treatment.

The inquest into Miss Wooltorton’s death heard that she had drunk the poison up to nine times in the year before her death and each time doctors had flushed the toxins from her system.

She drew up her directive on Sept 15, 2007, stating in the document that she was “100 per cent aware of the consequences” of her actions and did not want to be treated.

Three days later she called an ambulance after drinking the poison at her flat in Norwich.

She was taken to the accident and emergency department of Norfolk and Norwich Hospital and handed over her letter and also made her wishes clear verbally, the inquest was told.

The letter said that if she called for an ambulance it was not a plea for treatment, but because she did not want to die alone and in pain. She lapsed into unconsciousness and died in hospital the next day. William Armstrong, the Norfolk coroner, recorded a narrative verdict that did not blame the hospital for her death. He stated: “She had capacity to consent to treatment which, it is more likely than not, would have prevented her death. She refused such treatment in full knowledge of the consequences and died as a result.”

But asked about the consequences had he intervened, Dr Alexander Heaton, the hospital’s consultant renal physician, said: “I would’ve been breaking the law and I wasn’t worried about her suing me, but I think she would have asked, 'What do I have to do to tell you what my wishes

[Animavore]

This topic always makes me feel weird.
The part of me that loves life thinks we should be allowed intervene because she may not always be depressed and could have a really good life in the future.
The part of me that wants to respect peoples personal wishes says we shouldn't intervene.

The hopeful part of me hopes that she pulls through this without benefit of medical treatment and maybe has second thoughts about it.

EDIT: Whoops. Sorry. She's dead. There goes hope.

[Pappa]

Hmm.... that strikes me as contradictory with the illegality of suicide. Very strange.

[The Dawktor]

I was umming and ahhing about it until I read that she'd written that she called the ambulance because she "didn't want to die alone & in pain"

[Sisifo]

I am pro legalization of suicide and pro euthanasia, but not about shifting the death responsibility to the ER doctors, or to anyone else for that matters.

It is an unfair moral burden unasked by the doctors who actually have a vocation of saving lives and might only sacrifice that goal after deep and well informed scrutiny.

So I'm sorry for the doctors and I hope this might lead to a day where they can follow their morals, in one direction or the other without fear of legal harassment.

[Feck]

I thought that committing suicide was a sectionable act so you could not refuse treatment ?

Not to be flippant but my understanding was that if you try to refuse treatment then they just treat you anyway and section you as soon as a doctor or two can be found to sign the paperwork .

Several of my friends and family have made attempts ,I think about it lots (not much recently :-) )

Most of the people I know who have tried to are leading happier lives now .

I think everyone has a right to end their lives but you don't have a right to expect anybody else to agree with your choice ,paramedics doctors and nurses have taken oaths to stop you doing this and should not be put in this position .

[Rum]

I didn't think that living wills were legally binding.

There isn't an answer to this conundrum. Sometimes there isn't to the difficult questions.

[The Dawktor]

I thought that committing suicide was a sectionable act so you could not refuse treatment ?

Not to be flippant but my understanding was that if you try to refuse treatment then they just treat you anyway and section you as soon as a doctor or two can be found to sign the paperwork .

It can take many hours to get the right people in to Section someone legally- if you mess up the paperwork- a legal shit-storm can follow very quickly. So- not a really practical option if time is critical. Just because someone doesn't want to live doesn't mean that they are not perfectly sane and making a reasonable decision for themselves.

[CJ]

Hmm.... that strikes me as contradictory with the illegality of suicide. Very strange.

Suicide is not illegal in the UK. It is not a crime to kill oneself. It is a crime to assist a person to commit suicide.

[Feck]

I thought that committing suicide was a sectionable act so you could not refuse treatment ?

Not to be flippant but my understanding was that if you try to refuse treatment then they just treat you anyway and section you as soon as a doctor or two can be found to sign the paperwork .

It can take many hours to get the right people in to Section someone legally- if you mess up the paperwork- a legal shit-storm can follow very quickly. So- not a really practical option if time is critical. Just because someone doesn't want to live doesn't mean that they are not perfectly sane and making a reasonable decision for themselves.

wow that's fucked up and nasty for the medics ,damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Pappa]

Hmm.... that strikes me as contradictory with the illegality of suicide. Very strange.

Suicide is not illegal in the UK. It is not a crime to kill oneself. It is a crime to assist a person to commit suicide.

It is a crime to attempt to kill oneself though, and as feck said, makes you liable for sectioning under the Mental Health Act.

I don't think suicide should be illegal if a person can demonstratively be shown to have made an informed decision to do so, but a living will is hardly proof of that. Perhaps several sessions with an appropriately trained couincellor or psychiatrists.

Anyway, this strikes me as allowing suicide by the back door. If we want to allow suicide, then surely we should amend the Mental Health Act instead.

[The Dawktor]

I thought that committing suicide was a sectionable act so you could not refuse treatment ?

Not to be flippant but my understanding was that if you try to refuse treatment then they just treat you anyway and section you as soon as a doctor or two can be found to sign the paperwork .

It can take many hours to get the right people in to Section someone legally- if you mess up the paperwork- a legal shit-storm can follow very quickly. So- not a really practical option if time is critical. Just because someone doesn't want to live doesn't mean that they are not perfectly sane and making a reasonable decision for themselves.

wow that's fucked up and nasty for the medics ,damned if you do, damned if you don't

'Twas ever thus! Damned if you play god, damned if you don't!:eddy:

[The Dawktor]

Anyway, this strikes me as allowing suicide by the back door. If we want to allow suicide, then surely we should amend the Mental Health Act instead.

It's very difficult to slam your back door onto your own head hard enough to kill yourself Pap'!
If we're going to allow suicide- then the Dutch system is best! Less ATTEMPTS that way.

[CJ]

Hmm.... that strikes me as contradictory with the illegality of suicide. Very strange.

Suicide is not illegal in the UK. It is not a crime to kill oneself. It is a crime to assist a person to commit suicide.

It is a crime to attempt to kill oneself though, and as feck said, makes you liable for sectioning under the Mental Health Act.

I don't think suicide should be illegal if a person can demonstratively be shown to have made an informed decision to do so, but a living will is hardly proof of that. Perhaps several sessions with an appropriately trained couincellor or psychiatrists.

Anyway, this strikes me as allowing suicide by the back door. If we want to allow suicide, then surely we should amend the Mental Health Act instead.

It would appear that commuting suicide and attempting to commit suicide are not illegal in England and Wales and have not been since 1961.

England and Wales

Suicide (and thus also attempted suicide) was illegal under English Law but ceased to be an offence with the passing of the Suicide Act 1961; the same Act makes it an offence to assist a suicide. While the simple act of suicide is lawful the consequences of committing suicide might turn an individual event into an unlawful act, as in the case of Reeves v Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis [2000] 1 AC 360 [3], where a man in police custody hanged himself and was held equally liable with the police (a cell door defect enabled the hanging) for the loss suffered by his widow; the practical effect was to reduce the police damages liability by 50%. In 2009, the House of Lords ruled that the law concerning the treatment of people who accompanied those who committed assisted suicide was unclear, following Debbie Purdy's case that this lack of clarity was a breach of her human rights. (In her case, as a sufferer from multiple sclerosis, she wanted to know whether her husband would be prosecuted for accompanying her abroad where she wished eventually to commit assisted suicide.) As a result, this law is expected to be revised.[4]

From here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Act_1961

[Feck]

There was a test case recently and the judge said that when assisting in euthanasia he would not expect a prosecution unless there were suspicions of an ulterior motive,But that might have been just in scotland we have different laws .