Palestine v Israel.

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rainbow
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by rainbow » Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:29 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:39 pm


The entire conflict is rooted in the idea that the Jews shouldn't be allowed to have some of their land back. The thing is, where do you want them to live? Most of the people there are only there because they were kicked out of Arab states, where they were robbed of land covering four times the area of Israel.

צעבראכן
The Irony Meter just broke.

It was the Palestinians that had their land stolen. Heard of the Nakba?

The Jews should be free to remain in Palestine, why is that even a question?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Feb 07, 2024 1:23 am

rainbow wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:29 pm
...
The Jews should be free to remain in Palestine, why is that even a question?
Because it invokes a state of affairs which seemingly justifies the action and intent of the Israeli govt.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Svartalf » Wed Feb 07, 2024 1:26 am

rainbow wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:29 pm
Strontium Dog wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:39 pm


The entire conflict is rooted in the idea that the Jews shouldn't be allowed to have some of their land back. The thing is, where do you want them to live? Most of the people there are only there because they were kicked out of Arab states, where they were robbed of land covering four times the area of Israel.

צעבראכן
The Irony Meter just broke.

It was the Palestinians that had their land stolen. Heard of the Nakba?

The Jews should be free to remain in Palestine, why is that even a question?
He does not understand nakba, calls it an old canard.
but there may be questions about the ownership of many, many bits of land...
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:07 am

rainbow wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:29 pm
It was the Palestinians that had their land stolen. Heard of the Nakba?

Oh yes, that was when the entire Arab world invaded the brand new UN-defined state of Israel to try to commit genocide, and got their arses handed to them, then spent the next 75 years whingeing about it.
rainbow wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:29 pm
The Jews should be free to remain in Palestine, why is that even a question?

Is this supposed to be a joke?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Tero » Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:55 am

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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by rainbow » Wed Feb 07, 2024 6:33 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:07 am
rainbow wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:29 pm
It was the Palestinians that had their land stolen. Heard of the Nakba?

Oh yes, that was when the entire Arab world invaded the brand new UN-defined state of Israel to try to commit genocide, and got their arses handed to them, then spent the next 75 years whingeing about it.
rainbow wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:29 pm
The Jews should be free to remain in Palestine, why is that even a question?

Is this supposed to be a joke?
It is very rude to answer a question with a question.

Were you raised in a barn?

Now answer my question. Why shouldn't Jews be allowed to live in Palestine?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Strontium Dog » Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:58 am

Tero wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:55 am

What ahistorical bullshit. Please tell me you don't believe that nonsense?

Jerusalem a "Palestinian city", I don't even...
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:50 am

Now now. One can grant that Jerusalem existed as a "Palestinian city" if one accepts that Palestine existed as a geo-political entity under the League of Nations mandate that gave the British administrative control of "Palestine" after WWI up until the formation of Israel in 1948? Through the mandate and the Sykes-Picot agreement Palestine was effectively created as a colonial possession by the Western powers. Acknowledging this shouldn't have any impact on your current views, unless you wish to disavow the legitimacy of any and all claims the previous non-Jewish residents of that territory, and more significantly perhaps their descendants, might have to the land within the borders of the nation of Israel created in 1948.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Strontium Dog » Thu Feb 08, 2024 12:22 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:50 am
Now now. One can grant that Jerusalem existed as a "Palestinian city" if one accepts that Palestine existed as a geo-political entity under the League of Nations mandate that gave the British administrative control of "Palestine" after WWI up until the formation of Israel in 1948? Through the mandate and the Sykes-Picot agreement Palestine was effectively created as a colonial possession by the Western powers. Acknowledging this shouldn't have any impact on your current views, unless you wish to disavow the legitimacy of any and all claims the previous non-Jewish residents of that territory, and more significantly perhaps their descendants, might have to the land within the borders of the nation of Israel created in 1948.

You could argue that Paris was a German city between 1940 and 1944, and that would be equally absurd.

"Palestinian city" Tel Aviv didn't even exist until it was built out of the desert by Jews, on land purchased from the Bedouins; there are photos and everything.

The whole point of these gloriously specious maps is to perpetuate the falsehood that there was some independent nation of Palestine from which the "native Palestinians" were dispossessed (they didn't even start calling themselves Palestinians until the 1960s; until then they were always Arabs who baulked at the term Palestinian, which was traditionally interchangeable with Jew).

Palestine wasn't "created" as a colonial possession by Western powers, it was only ever a colonial possession under that name.

"Palestine" was nothing but the occupied region of Judea, renamed* by the Roman occupiers , then ruled over by different colonial powers continually over the millennia, until midway through the last century, when part of it was liberated from imperialism and returned to the native Jews.

Anyone who thinks the Jews are going to be driven from their land again is pissing in the wind. The sooner the Arab Muslim colonisers recognise that and make their peace with Israel's existence, the better.


(*of course the Romans, always fans of irony, still gave a nod to the original inhabitants; check out the meaning of the Latin word palaestes, then check out what Israel means)
100% verifiable facts or your money back. Anti-fascist. Enemy of woo - theistic or otherwise. Cloth is not an antiviral. Imagination and fantasy is no substitute for tangible reality. Wishing doesn't make it real.

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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Tero » Thu Feb 08, 2024 12:45 pm

It’s a tough time for the U.S.-Israel alliance. The death toll from the Gaza war has shaken Washington officials. President Biden wants Israel to recognize a Palestinian state, something its current government opposes. Top Israeli officials openly criticize Biden. Antony Blinken, the secretary of state, is just concluding a trip there to seek common ground — his seventh visit to the country since the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks.

The American public is not happy either. Polling shows widespread disapproval of Israel’s campaign and of the way Biden has handled it (although some of those who disapprove believe Biden is too hard on Israel). Younger Americans are far more sympathetic to Palestinians than older generations are.

Anger at Israel is mounting in Congress, as well. Many Democrats want an immediate cease-fire, which Israel and the Biden administration oppose.

Members of Israel’s right-wing government have watched all this with mounting rage. “Instead of giving us his full backing, Biden is busy with giving humanitarian aid and fuel, which goes to Hamas,” Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security, told The Wall Street Journal this week.

the Biden administration wants to broker a deal under which Saudi Arabia and Israel would normalize relations, a move that could ensure greater stability and prosperity in the Middle East. But Saudi Arabia won’t agree if Israel doesn’t help improve Palestinians’ lives and give them a chance at statehood. Saudi rulers are concerned that anger over the issue could undermine their own support at home.

Yet Netanyahu says he will never allow the creation of such a state. His conservative allies, and many Israelis, agree.

That may not stop the White House. Sources tell me the U.S. could soon recognize a Palestinian state, albeit one with borders and other details to be
determined later. One way that could happen is through a United Nations resolution that the United States would, at a minimum, not block.

The U.S.-Israel relationship has weathered storms before. Both Barack Obama and Ronald Reagan had major disagreements with the Israeli prime ministers at the time.

Still, for the first time in decades, each side is pushing ahead with little regard for what its partner wants. A U.N. vote on Palestinian statehood would be only symbolic so long as Israel occupies much of the Palestinians’ territory.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:05 pm

Again, what statehood? Why would it only be symbolic because Israel refuses to acknowledge it? That's absurd. It would be symbolic because the Palestinians wouldn't be running it --whatever Israel decides. Nobody in the region is allowed to let the Palestinians decide their own fate.

They have one job. Why are people acting like this isn't true?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Svartalf » Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:24 pm

they have a job?
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Tero » Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:30 pm

You have to start somewhere. I imagine Gaza would eventually go to an Iran or Iraq type mostly muslim state. You can't just invent a king. And all they have is poverty anyway.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Svartalf » Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:33 pm

You could invent a king, what you can't do is spontaneously create a stable system without strong bases... and even with those you have no certainty.
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Re: Palestine v Israel.

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:44 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:24 pm
they have a job?
You’re right, if it were a job they’d at least get paid, and could quit.
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