Palestine v Israel.

[Strontium Dog]

You are saying that the Nazis didn't commit genocide. That's quite something.

Congratulations, you're making even less sense than usual.

[Brian Peacock]

That's an interesting wiki page.

[rainbow]

You are saying that the Nazis didn't commit genocide. That's quite something.

Congratulations, you're making even less sense than usual.

I'm just following your logic.
So yes it is nonsense that just because the Netanyahu gang have only killed 3% of the Gazans, it doesn't qualify as Genocide.

[JimC]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-31/ ... /103403552

Amalek. It's a biblical tale of destruction that has been invoked by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and featured in a drill hip hop song that's garnered millions of streams.

Most recently though, the story of Amalek — and Mr Netanyahu's invocation of it — featured in South Africa's case against Israel at the United Nations' International Court of Justice (ICJ).

South Africa has accused Israel of committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. It's an accusation Israel vehemently rejects.

On Friday, ICJ President Joan Donoghue delivered the interim judgement, calling the humanitarian situation in Gaza "catastrophic" and imposing several conditions on Israel. While the court said that some of South Africa's assertions were plausible, it stopped short of ordering a ceasefire.

So, what is the ancient story of Amalek? How does it relate to the current conflict? And why is it a key part of this ongoing international court case?

Who are the people of Amalek?

To understand the complexities at play, RN's The Religion and Ethics Report spoke with Atalia Omer, who specialises in Jewish and Israeli history and politics at Notre Dame University in the United States.

The conflict between the Israelites and Amalekites — the people of Amalek — begins in the Book of Exodus, after the Israelites escape Egypt and cross the Red Sea.

"The Amalekites basically ambush the Israelites and attack the most vulnerable," Professor Omer explains.

Flipping to the Book of Samuel, the warring tribes cross paths once more.

"[The Israelites] are reminded by God to remember the Amalek and what the Amalek had done to them," Professor Omer explains.

"King Saul is instructed by God to completely annihilate all of the Amalekites, including children, babies, animals, men, women, everyone".

Only, he didn't entirely complete the task. Professor Omer explains that King Saul spared the best animals and along with Agag, the king of the Amalekites.

Why is this story still relevant?

The story remains well known in Israel because it's re-told before the Jewish holiday of Purim each year, Professor Omer says.

Purim commemorates the bravery of Esther, wife of the King of Persia who — with the help of her uncle — managed to save the Jewish people from the bloody wrath of Haman.

"A reading of the story of Amalek happens … because King Saul failed to completely destroy Amalek, then we have the story of the almost-destruction of the Jewish people during the time of Haman," Professor Omer explains.

"It's kind of like, 'That's the lesson, that you really need to be on the lookout'.

"And it really is integrated into Netanyahu's rhetoric about living by the sword and so forth."

To use a famous quote: "Religion poisons everything"

[Brian Peacock]

In repeatedly invoking the biblical stories of the Amalekites Netanyahu casts himself in the role of the Lord’s anointed, charged by God with "blotting out all memory of the Palestinians from under heaven". I'm sure that plays well politically with observant and orthodox Israelis, but it also bolsters broader longstanding narratives which maintain that Israel is never the originator of its own violence.

[Strontium Dog]

You are saying that the Nazis didn't commit genocide. That's quite something.

Congratulations, you're making even less sense than usual.

I'm just following your logic.
So yes it is nonsense that just because the Netanyahu gang have only killed 3% of the Gazans, it doesn't qualify as Genocide.

The Nazis killed two-thirds of all the Jews in Europe and displaced most of the rest.

Unsure how this compares with Israel killing 10,000 Hamas terrorists in a war, but I'm most likely making the mistake of searching for logic where none exists.

[Brian Peacock]

... Unsure how this compares with Israel killing 10,000 Hamas terrorists in a war ...

What about the other c.15,000 fatalities, or the estimated c.10,000 children orphaned? If absolute numbers describe or define a genocide then where's the cut-off? If the absolute numbers do not or cannot describe or define a genocide then perhaps we're only talking about war crimes rather than a genocide?

Talking of numbers. On 27 Dec 2023 Netanyahu accused Erdogan of "committing genocide against the Kurds" after the president of Turkey likened him to Hitler. Data from Uppsala Conflict Data Program (UCDP) estimates total Kurdish fatalities in the territory of Kurdistan at 35,894 between the PKK beginning its separatist campaign in 1983 and 2022. Of those 5498 have occurred since Erdogan became president in 2014, and if we include the period 2008-2014 when he was Prime Minister we might say that c.8,000 Kurds have been killed since Erdogan first came to power as PM. However, it should be mentioned that there are an estimated 36m Kurds, the majority of whom live within the disputed territory of Kurdistan, which straddles the Turkish, Syrian, Iraqi, and Iranian borders, and that the Kurdish people are subject to the threat and consequences of military action from and with all surrounding countries plus extremist Islamic Jihadis.

Nonetheless, if we allow that the 8,000 Kurdish fatalities since 2008 validate Netanyahu's claim that Erdogan has been "committing genocide against the Kurds," then we could note that Israel surpassed that figure in Gaza on 30 Oct 2023 (according to the Associated Press), and that this figure is drawn from a Palestinian population of just over 5 million within the territories of Gazz, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem.

[rainbow]

The Nazis killed two-thirds of all the Jews in Europe and displaced most of the rest.

Unsure how this compares with Israel killing 10,000 Hamas terrorists in a war, but I'm most likely making the mistake of searching for logic where none exists.

We are not talking about combatants.

Where do you get the figure of 10 000?
IDF?
My son's father in law was a senior officer in the IDF.
His opinion is that only a complete putz would believe them

[rainbow]

...and in some bizarre alternative universe, armed men storm a hospital, murder 3 patients in their beds, and call the victims "Terrorists"

[Brian Peacock]

Well, the guy in the bed was a paralysed Hamas fighter, and the other two blokes were obviously wrong 'uns because they were visiting him in hospital. As well as there being strict rules against the execution of prisoners and combatants receiving medical treatment in the Geneva convention, there's also a section on 'perfidy' which the Israeli armed forces seem to have fallen foul of here. But it's not like anybody is paying any attention to that irrelevant old document any more are they?

[pErvinalia]

Stop being anti-semitic, Brian.

[Strontium Dog]

Well, the guy in the bed was a paralysed Hamas fighter, and the other two blokes were obviously wrong 'uns because they were visiting him in hospital. As well as there being strict rules against the execution of prisoners and combatants receiving medical treatment in the Geneva convention, there's also a section on 'perfidy' which the Israeli armed forces seem to have fallen foul of here. But it's not like anybody is paying any attention to that irrelevant old document any more are they?

Accusations of perfidy are quite funny coming from Hamas, I must say, the absolute masters of pretending to be non-combatants. Funny how it's only a problem when Jews do it!

But people definitely need to make their minds up whether they want Israel to bomb indiscriminately, or to target the bad guys specifically without harming any innocents.

[Brian Peacock]

It's a problem when anybody excutes prisoners or soldiers in hospital beds, perfidiously or otherwise. Again, we see the shills of Israel denying that Israel are the authors and originators of their own violence.

[Svartalf]

Stop being anti-semitic, Brian.

Arabs are semites, therefore it's the israelis who are anti semitic

[rainbow]

Accusations of perfidy are quite funny coming from Hamas, I must say, the absolute masters of pretending to be non-combatants. Funny how it's only a problem when Jews do it!

The accusations are coming from human rights organisations, not Hamas.
...but thanks for admitting that the IDF are no better than a terrorist organisation.

But people definitely need to make their minds up whether they want Israel to bomb indiscriminately, or to target the bad guys specifically without harming any innocents.

How about the alternative of treating the Palestinians as equals?
Either as full citizens of a united state of Israel/Palestine (One State Solution), or as citizens of a sovereign state, fully independent of Israel (Two State Solution)