Palestine v Israel.

[Strontium Dog]

Take it to the conspiracy theories thread, fellas.

[JimC]

Ambulances and hospitals are never legitimate targets, even if they contain wounded soldiers.

What about if they are used as camouflage, carrying unwounded soldiers, weapons, ammunition etc.?

(I'm not asserting that was definitely the case this time, but it's certainly quite possible...)

[JimC]

....

Perhaps the ambulance was only carrying injured civilians. One doubts that Israel would have deliberately targeted that, if only for the potential for bad PR. ...

Israel have total control of the phone network, which has allowed them to gather intelligence and target some individuals with a high degree of accuracy, including journalists it seems.

Pegasus, and other spyware are on nearly every cellphone in Israel especially Gaza.

The IDF knew what Hamas were planning. They are complicit.
Netanyahu and his gang of criminals wanted an incident, so they could retaliate. Blood is on their hands.

That seems unlikely to me. Much more likely is complacency and incompetence. Netanyahu was preoccupied by his attacks on the Israeli court system - he will certainly pay a political price in the end, and heads will roll in the IDF and Israeli intelligence services.

[rainbow]

Ambulances and hospitals are never legitimate targets, even if they contain wounded soldiers.

What about if they are used as camouflage, carrying unwounded soldiers, weapons, ammunition etc.?

(I'm not asserting that was definitely the case this time, but it's certainly quite possible...)

The assumption should be made that ambulances and hospitals are being used legitimately, unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. That is the Geneva Convention, and this is a clearly a violation and a War Crime.

[Svartalf]

israel and the idf have committed enough crimes in the last 70 years that both should be disbanded.

[JimC]

Ambulances and hospitals are never legitimate targets, even if they contain wounded soldiers.

What about if they are used as camouflage, carrying unwounded soldiers, weapons, ammunition etc.?

(I'm not asserting that was definitely the case this time, but it's certainly quite possible...)

The assumption should be made that ambulances and hospitals are being used legitimately, unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. That is the Geneva Convention, and this is a clearly a violation and a War Crime.

Perhaps the IDF had clear evidence, or perhaps it was just a guess in the fog of war. Still stupid thing to do, even if they were right about the ambulance containing weapons and fighters; bad optics, and too much chance of collateral damage (given the proximity of other ambulances). At the very least, the IDF is being reckless with civilian lives as it pursues Hamas...

[rainbow]

Ambulances and hospitals are never legitimate targets, even if they contain wounded soldiers.

What about if they are used as camouflage, carrying unwounded soldiers, weapons, ammunition etc.?

(I'm not asserting that was definitely the case this time, but it's certainly quite possible...)

The assumption should be made that ambulances and hospitals are being used legitimately, unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. That is the Geneva Convention, and this is a clearly a violation and a War Crime.

Perhaps the IDF had clear evidence, or perhaps it was just a guess in the fog of war. Still stupid thing to do, even if they were right about the ambulance containing weapons and fighters; bad optics, and too much chance of collateral damage (given the proximity of other ambulances). At the very least, the IDF is being reckless with civilian lives as it pursues Hamas...

If the IDF had clear evidence, why don't they show it?
Clearly they don't - but no matter, the people of Israel will believe them.
...so will many in the West, but these numbers are diminishing with every civilian death.

These tactics have two effects.
They are radicalising the Gazan population, effectively recruiting the next generation of militants. Imagine you are a child in Gaza and your family have been killed. Would you be more inclined to join a murderous raid on Israelis given the chance?
...or perhaps you'd think, no granny was collateral damage, and I'll become a moderate?

Think about it. The Israeli policy of revenge is either incredibly stupid, or they want perpetual war.

The other is the increasing disillusionment in the West with Israel. Israel cannot survive without the support of Western leaders. They are looking at polls and seeing that pro-Israel is not an automatic vote catcher.

[Brian Peacock]

Ambulances and hospitals are never legitimate targets, even if they contain wounded soldiers.

What about if they are used as camouflage, carrying unwounded soldiers, weapons, ammunition etc.?

(I'm not asserting that was definitely the case this time, but it's certainly quite possible...)

The assumption should be made that ambulances and hospitals are being used legitimately, unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. That is the Geneva Convention, and this is a clearly a violation and a War Crime.

Perhaps the IDF had clear evidence, or perhaps it was just a guess in the fog of war. Still stupid thing to do, even if they were right about the ambulance containing weapons and fighters; bad optics, and too much chance of collateral damage (given the proximity of other ambulances). At the very least, the IDF is being reckless with civilian lives as it pursues Hamas...

I don't think the Israeli govt are that concerned with the optics while western leaders are still endorsing the "right to defend itself" and "Hamas are ISIS" framing. Even the dropping of indiscriminate white phosphorus munitions in the West Bank is not being challenged internationally, and the govt and the IDF have designated all of Gaza and the occupied territories as battlefields, rendering their actions arguably legal.

[Strontium Dog]

I don't think the Israeli govt are that concerned with the optics while western leaders are still endorsing the "right to defend itself" and "Hamas are ISIS" framing. Even the dropping of indiscriminate white phosphorus munitions in the West Bank is not being challenged internationally, and the govt and the IDF have designated all of Gaza and the occupied territories as battlefields, rendering their actions arguably legal.

It's legal to use WP as a smoke screen. Although most of what is being described as "white phosphorus" isn't anything of the sort.

[JimC]

I don't think the Israeli govt are that concerned with the optics while western leaders are still endorsing the "right to defend itself" and "Hamas are ISIS" framing. Even the dropping of indiscriminate white phosphorus munitions in the West Bank is not being challenged internationally, and the govt and the IDF have designated all of Gaza and the occupied territories as battlefields, rendering their actions arguably legal.

Actually, I think that they will need to start being concerned about the optics - increasingly, the emphasis from allies is to warn Israel that the current civilian death toll is unacceptable to the international community, and that significant pauses to allow humanitarian aid should occur. If Israel is not detecting this shift in emphasis, they are not reading the room, and may soon find themselves increasingly isolated.

[rainbow]

I don't think the Israeli govt are that concerned with the optics while western leaders are still endorsing the "right to defend itself" and "Hamas are ISIS" framing. Even the dropping of indiscriminate white phosphorus munitions in the West Bank is not being challenged internationally, and the govt and the IDF have designated all of Gaza and the occupied territories as battlefields, rendering their actions arguably legal.

It's legal to use WP as a smoke screen. Although most of what is being described as "white phosphorus" isn't anything of the sort.

The usage of white phosphorus is restricted under international humanitarian law. Although there can be lawful uses, it must never be fired at, or in close proximity to, a populated civilian area or civilian infrastructure, due to the high likelihood that the fires and smoke it causes spread. Such attacks, which fail to distinguish between civilians and civilian objects and fighters and military objectives, are indiscriminate and thus prohibited.

White phosphorus is an incendiary substance mostly used to create a dense smoke screen or mark targets. When exposed to air, it burns at extremely high temperatures and often starts fires in the areas in which it is deployed. People exposed to white phosphorus can suffer respiratory damage, organ failure and other horrific and life-changing injuries, including burns that are extremely difficult to treat and cannot be put out with water. Burns affecting only 10 percent of the body are often fatal.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... -escalate/

[pErvinalia]

Israeli minister says nuking Gaza is an option.

[JimC]

Israeli minister says nuking Gaza is an option.

To be fair, he is a weird outlier...

[Svartalf]

and if gaza gets glassed, tel aviv gets the next one

[aufbahrung]

Always said the answer to these foreign peoples is to ship them abroad. My family has a history stretching back over a thousand years here. All you newcomers get out.