Spygate is unravelling

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L'Emmerdeur
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:23 am

Joe wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:27 pm
Yes Lemmy. I can read. But let me ask you a question. Why would I take what the defense says as gospel, and dismiss Durham's explanation? After all, he countered the defense's contention with one of his own.

I don't know what either lawyer is thinking, and no evidence to consult, so I'm leaving the door open to the possibility that either explanation is correct. Durham may be no babe in the woods, but that doesn't make him infallible. I think it prudent to keep Hanlon's razor in mind.

What's wrong with that?
:) I'm not saying your perspective is incorrect. My questions point to a pattern in Durham's work. Generally if lawyers put something into documents that will be entered into the record, they have a reason. The material that Durham put into that filing which does not directly bear on a possible conflict of interest is not there to just bulk out the filing. It does not appear to advance his case, and could end up being detrimental to it. Hard to see a pure motive for its inclusion, but perhaps there is one that we are not privy to.

Former Attorney General Barr has been a political hack and Republican hatchet man for decades, and there is no reason to think that he was acting in the best interest of justice when he appointed Durham. I admit that my opinion of Durham's work as special prosecutor is colored by this. Maybe I'm wrong to detect a suspicious pattern in Durham's efforts. See for instance his unusual comment on Inspector General Horowitz's report, which I view as part of this pattern. The linked story goes to some lengths to emphasise Durham's credibility, and to that extent it supports your more cautious take on this.

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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Joe » Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:34 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:23 am
Joe wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:27 pm
Yes Lemmy. I can read. But let me ask you a question. Why would I take what the defense says as gospel, and dismiss Durham's explanation? After all, he countered the defense's contention with one of his own.

I don't know what either lawyer is thinking, and no evidence to consult, so I'm leaving the door open to the possibility that either explanation is correct. Durham may be no babe in the woods, but that doesn't make him infallible. I think it prudent to keep Hanlon's razor in mind.

What's wrong with that?
:) I'm not saying your perspective is incorrect. My questions point to a pattern in Durham's work. Generally if lawyers put something into documents that will be entered into the record, they have a reason. The material that Durham put into that filing which does not directly bear on a possible conflict of interest is not there to just bulk out the filing. It does not appear to advance his case, and could end up being detrimental to it. Hard to see a pure motive for its inclusion, but perhaps there is one that we are not privy to.

Former Attorney General Barr has been a political hack and Republican hatchet man for decades, and there is no reason to think that he was acting in the best interest of justice when he appointed Durham. I admit that my opinion of Durham's work as special prosecutor is colored by this. Maybe I'm wrong to detect a suspicious pattern in Durham's efforts. See for instance his unusual comment on Inspector General Horowitz's report, which I view as part of this pattern. The linked story goes to some lengths to emphasise Durham's credibility, and to that extent it supports your more cautious take on this.
Well, I certainly share your suspicion of Barr, and the concern that so many respected people have been corrupted by association with Trump world. I also leave the door open to the possibility that Durham has been turned, or was never what he seemed. I guess his report will tell us a lot.

As far as his filing goes, he doesn't appear to be showing his entire hand, rather promising "to file motions in limine in which it will further discuss
these and other pertinent facts to explain why they constitute relevant and admissible evidence at trial." I wonder if this part was to prime the judge, while distracting the defense with the threat of being removed for a conflict of interest. If that was the case, the media frenzy blew that misdirection out of the water. That's what makes me suspect he may have screwed up.

Of course, he may still be able to convince the judge to let a jury hear this evidence should this come to trial, but the media circus will have moved on to the next manufactured outrage du jour by then.
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:55 am

Durham is surely aware that his investigation was instigated and is operating in a highly politicised environment. A bland legal justification for the content of the filings doesn't feel entirely credible to me.
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Joe » Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:50 pm

I get that, but I'm also cognizant of my lack of expertise in this area. I did come across an explanation from a conservative former career prosecutor. I don't care for his politics, but his explanation does make sense, for what it's worth.
As the Durham probe has crept along, often with nary a peep out of the prosecutor’s office for month after month, with Democrats complaining that he was wasting resources and Trump supporters squawking that he was asleep at the switch, it has been apparent that Durham does not perceive it as his job to feed the media beast. He did not file a motion with the court because he thought it was a slow news day.

As Rich and I discussed this morning while recording the recently posted TMR podcast, there are always specific, case-related reasons why prosecutors make pretrial court submissions that proffer sundry details about what they will seek to prove at trial. These reasons relate not to what the public is curious about, but to whatever the submission in question is asking the judge to do (if it is a government motion), or to whatever a defense motion has asked the judge to do. As a result, the prosecutor’s sense of the proffered information’s relevance is likely to be very different from what seems relevant to journalists and partisans (some of the former are also the latter). The prosecutor’s understanding of the information he proffers — both of its nature and how it relates to other information that is germane to the case but not discussed in the submission — is also apt to be better informed than that of commentators. That’s not because the commentators are partisans or morons (though some are); it’s because the investigator always knows things we don’t, is always aware of details that for us are gaps in need of filling.

In this instance, Durham filed a motion last week asking the presiding judge, Christopher R. “Casey” Cooper, to inquire into a potential conflict of interest borne by Latham & Watkins, the law firm representing defendant Michael Sussmann.

L&W also represents (or at least has represented and thus, under ethical rules, owes continuing fealty to) (a) Perkins-Coie, the law firm at which Sussmann worked during the pertinent time frame (including in connection with Sussmann’s representation of the Democratic National Committee and tech executive Rodney Joffe), and (b) Marc Elias, Sussmann’s law partner at the time (and the principal partner in Perkins-Coie’s representation of the Hillary Clinton campaign). For the most part, Durham’s motion adheres to Justice Department convention of not naming uncharged persons and entities: Perkins-Coie is “Law Firm-1,” Elias is “Campaign Lawyer-1,” Joffe is “Tech Executive-1,” and the DNC is “Political Organization-1.” (The Clinton campaign is referred to by name because it pervades the case — it would be impractical to avoid referring to it by name.)

Prosecutors are duty bound, under court precedents, to raise any potential conflicts involving defense counsel of which they become aware. It’s easy to understand why. A lawyer, for example, is not permitted to cross-examine a current or former client. So, let’s say Lawyer A is representing the defendant, and a former client of Lawyer A ends up becoming a critical witness in the trial. This is a conflict for Lawyer A because he owes the defendant zealous representation, but ethics rules forbid him from cross-examining (or even making jury arguments against) the witness, his former client. Thus, the defendant could be deprived of the constitutional rights to confront witnesses, present a defense, and have effective assistance of counsel. That would cause a mistrial, an enormous waste of resources.

Ergo, conflicts get resolved pretrial. Most often (because we try to preserve a defendant’s choice of counsel), this is done by allowing the defendant to waive the right to cross-examine a potential witness. Sometimes, a court will instead ensure that a non-conflicted lawyer is on the defense team to handle the questioning of, and arguments about, any witnesses as to whom there is a conflict. But sometimes, if the conflict is serious enough (the lawyer cannot confront the main witnesses in the case) or complex enough (it gets very hard to predict all the things that could go wrong in multiple-representation situations), defense counsel must be disqualified from the case, and the defendant must obtain new, non-conflicted representation.

Here, Durham (who related the applicable law on this subject at pages 5–6 of his motion) has opined that the potential conflicts can probably be addressed by a waiver. And we should stress: To flag a conflict is not to accuse anyone of misconduct; it is to address a contingency lest it become a huge problem.

In order for a judge to understand why there is a conflict, the prosecutor must foreshadow what the evidence will prove. This enables the judge to grasp why the testimony of possible witnesses who are current or former clients of defense counsel matters to the case. That is why Durham had to proffer parts of his case that bear on Perkins-Coie and Elias. If Sussmann is to be permitted to keep L&W as his trial counsel, he must waive the right to claim prejudice from any potential conflict his L&W lawyers have.

Under Supreme Court precedents, waivers involving constitutional rights must be knowing and voluntary. In the potential-conflict situation, then, the judge must make a record that the defendant was fully informed about the potential conflict, and made an uncoerced decision that keeping his potentially conflicted lawyer was worth forfeiting the right to claim harm from the conflict. To do that, the judge must walk the defendant through the evidence that bears on the conflict, and make sure the defendant understands how his interest in challenging that evidence could be harmed by the lawyer’s conflicting loyalties. The judge cannot do that unless the prosecutor has explained what that evidence is.
Interestingly, I found this because the Washington Examiner reporter who wrote a very deceptive article inciting the controversy retweeted it. SMH.
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:21 am

Good link. Cheers :tup:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Cunt » Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:40 am

Mr. Cates seems to think Hillary could be involved. That silly conspiracy theorist!
https://t.me/drawandstrikechannel/37492
👆👆👆Notice how 99% of the News Media out there, even our own Conservative media, hasn't grasped where Durham is headed.

Trump Tower didn't have any classified information stored there per se; but Joffe and his merry crew of federal contractors were accessing the Trump Tower stuff via federal databases. Stealing Trump Tower information off those databases and giving it to the Clinton campaign's dirty tricksters was still a federal felony.

The White House servers did have tons of classified information stored there.

And Joffe and his federal contractor crew stealing some of that classified info and giving it to Clinton's dirty tricksters so they could manufacture some Trump/Russia hoaxes with it is not only a federal felony, it's actual espionage.

The fact Hillary Clinton, who is paying for this stolen classified information, is an American citizen doesn't matter. It's still paying somebody to steal classified information for your own use.

And Clinton's dirty tricksters at Fusion GPS and Perkins Coie didn't have any national security clearances.

Their just having this classified stuff in their possession is a federal felony.

Read more here:

https://briancates.substack.com/p/embra ... ichael?s=w
ANY minute now...
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Cunt » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:13 pm

TechnoFog is at it again...
Letter (dated 3/23/2022) from Special Counsel John Durham to the attorneys for Michael Sussmann:

FBI and CIA personnel concluded that the purported Alfa Bank/YotaPhone data was "potentially incomplete, fabricated, and/or exaggerated."

"Fabricated" 👀
It's almost like it was made up bullshit...funny so many still have such confidence in the narrative put forward by the 'Friends Of Disney'
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Cunt » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:27 pm

Kim dotcom is involved in the laptop data now, and tweets that a forensics team has handed it over to wikileaks.
https://twitter.com/KimDotcom

ANY minute now...
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by rasetsu » Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:33 pm

Cunt wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:27 pm
Kim dotcom is involved in the laptop data now, and tweets that a forensics team has handed it over to wikileaks.
https://twitter.com/KimDotcom

ANY minute now...
Funny, that's the same thing the Christians say. Any minute now our savior will arrive. Just you wait!

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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Joe » Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:59 pm

Given the recent furor over the perfectly legal use of DNS traffic being mentioned in a routine court filing, I'd say the spin machine is on knife's edge for anything they can use to "exonerate" Trump again. :{D

Of course, there's another clock ticking that doesn't get mentioned much, the Statute of Limitations deadline to file charges for what Mueller reported. It's unlikely the DOJ will touch these for political reasons, and let Bill Barr's declination to prosecute stand, but I doubt that possibility has occurred to most of these people. :bored:

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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Cunt » Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:03 pm

Lots of scams use the same thing.

'Hopium', is the slang term, I think.
https://t.me/drawandstrikechannel/37905
Important info dropped tonight:

Special Counsel Durham files CIA notes from Michael Sussmann's February 2017 meeting with the CIA.

"In December 2016, the [Russian] Yota-phone was seen connecting to WIFI from the Executive Office of the President (the White House)."

This is confirmation that they spied on President-Elect Trump in December 2016.
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Joe » Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:30 pm

Cunt wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:03 pm
Lots of scams use the same thing.

'Hopium', is the slang term, I think.
https://t.me/drawandstrikechannel/37905
Important info dropped tonight:

Special Counsel Durham files CIA notes from Michael Sussmann's February 2017 meeting with the CIA.

"In December 2016, the [Russian] Yota-phone was seen connecting to WIFI from the Executive Office of the President (the White House)."

This is confirmation that they spied on President-Elect Trump in December 2016.
And naturally, you read the filing and attachments and found out what "domain name system" (DNS) means, didn't you?

Of course you didn't because legal filings are long and boring, and DNS is a technical thing that only interests network admins, cybersecurity people like Joffe, and other IT types like me.

I doubt you want to know why this is BS, but here's a good explanation just in case you become interested in the truth.

I'll bottom line it for you though. Joffe is the guy who got this data, and if he had actually connected to Trump Tower's wi-fi, or the White House network, Durham would have indicted him so fast it would make your head spin because that's a federal felony.
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Cunt » Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:40 pm

The latest filings from special counsel John Durham don't present new evidence of crimes, but paint an unflattering picture of Team Clinton as it tried to make the Trump-Russia story take off.
So 'Team Clinton' was spying.

I think we knew that.

Since their target was the 'enemy of the (corporate media) people', it doesn't matter to the (corporate media) people.

We knew that, too.
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Joe » Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:17 pm

Oh yeah, the stuff Clinton's people came up with based on the DNS data was total speculation and proved to be nonsense. Welcome to the spin cycle. :smoke:
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Re: Spygate is unravelling

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:07 pm

After the spin cycle we rinse and repeat.
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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