Andrew's goose is well and truly cooked.

[JimC]

Things are not black or white in these situations. She could be a willing participant in one sense, but the experiences she had, and the psychological pressure from the older people who manipulated her probably meant that her freedom was highly compromised.

[laklak]

So what crime did Andrew commit?

[JimC]

Quite possibly there was no criminal action in the technical sense of the word by the Prince, but he was part and parcel of a group of rich, powerful men exploiting young girls (some below, and some above the age of consent) for sex. Many, if not most of the girls would be traumatised, even if they may have appeared to be willing at the time.

[Svartalf]

So what crime did Andrew commit?

receiving trafficked goods?
I mean, he's already dishonored and on the royal crap heap, so if he's ready to pour millions more into getting that case shut down, there must be very dirty laundry he does not want aired.

[pErvinalia]

Willing participant in a trafficking ring?

[macdoc]

Part of the issue here is the lingering western puritanism..



I used to laugh at the moral outrage over Clinton and Lewinsky ...in France they'd celebrate that a guy in the toughest job in the world could still get it up.

[pErvinalia]

The issue is trafficking and coercion.

[aufbahrung]

The issue is trafficking and coercion.

That's Australia. I've been around seen how things work. Nasty places are nasty. But women like to travel. Without the hindrance of money worries. And nice places are nice.

[macdoc]

The issue is trafficking and coercion.

So Guiffre is guilty of procuring a 14 year old and trafficking her?

[Hermit]

The issue is trafficking and coercion.

So Guiffre is guilty of procuring a 14 year old and trafficking her?

The trafficking was done by a whole bunch of people. Virginia Guiffre may have been one of them. Andrew Windsor may have been a consumer. All I am quite certain of is that the two have met. Nobody is claiming that the published photo of the two together has been photoshopped. Everything else is "he said - she said" stuff.

[aufbahrung]

It's the way he carried on with these women that digs for me. Nothing against a well regulated industry that removes poor players. But Andrew should have been escorted into a alley and been given some remedial treatment from the discourteous 'divine right of kings' behaviour.

[Brian Peacock]

The issue is trafficking and coercion.

So Guiffre is guilty of procuring a 14 year old and trafficking her?

I see you're keen to 'win' this one, but it hardly requires a massive leap of imagination, given what we now know of the scale, scope and mode of operation of Epstein's network, to allow for the possibility that Guiffre herself was controlled, coerced and trafficked. I'm interested to know why you appear so invested in holding her to account as an autonomous rational agent, and thus somewhat reluctant to consider her actions as those of a 17 year-old victim of sexual abuse and exploitation? Is it a lack of the aforementioned imagination or do you have some particular insight into the nature of sexual abuse which might be relevant here?

[macdoc]

Nothing to do with "win" ....it's the recognition she was age of majority participant in a trafficking organization that she could have left. Plus she played an active role in procuring a 14 year old for the group for which she was not prosecuted. She parlayed that set of "experiences" into several million dollars.....good on her....
Victim of the organization? ....NIMHO
Mezmerized by the wealth and power ...you bet.

[Hermit]

"Insert "he said - she said" type stuff here."