The Coronavirus Thread

[Joe]

Beats me. If you have a point to make Cunt, make it. As it is, I'm dismissing this as low effort trolling.

[JimC]

The critical thing about obedience to government directions is to consider first, whether it is a popularly elected government (and yes, I know, there are always flaws in most electoral systems) and secondly, to consider the rationale for those directions. IMO, said directions must be:

* rational, and based on a consensus of scientific advice, i.e. not for religious or other reasons

* proportionate, in that a reduction in freedom from said directions must be in proportion to the useful outcome expected from those directions

* aimed to benefit the community in general, or if more narrowly targeted, those in the greatest need or risk

The Great Barrington Declaration fulfills all those conditions, wherein scientists argue that social restrictions result in disproportionately adverse outcomes and don't really benefit those in greatest need/risk.

A tiny number may have argued the disproportionate case, but most medical scientists (and indeed, in Oz, most of the population) found that the temporary loss of some freedoms was well worth the removal of an effective death sentence hanging over many people in the population...

[Cunt]

Beats me. If you have a point to make Cunt, make it. As it is, I'm dismissing this as low effort trolling.

I'm not making a point, exactly. Or not trying to. Forget its me, would you?

If they are indeed very different (compliance-wise) then WHY are they very different? Were they similarly diligent about AIDS (as an example)?

[Hermit]

How did they do on AIDS?

Seriously. If they are, for some reason, a more compliant population in regards to disease measures, is it reflected there? Did the population change somehow since?

I'm not too sure how big a difference it is, but it looks like you all are convinced that it is VERY significant, so shouldn't it show in other ways?

Beats me. If you have a point to make Cunt, make it. As it is, I'm dismissing this as low effort trolling.

"Just asking questions", also known as JAQing off, is indeed a form of trolling. A cowardly form, for the questions are leading ones, almost invariably implying some sort of accusation. Cowards are attracted to it because it spares them from being challenged. "I didn't accuse anyone. I was just asking a question." (ETA: While I was writing this post, Daggles did exactly that: "I'm not making a point, exactly." )

Another advantage of this technique is that it is difficult to accuse the questioner of being a troll. He (it's usually a he) will demand an explanation about which rule of the forum users' agreement he has broken. Bush lawyering will ensue. Except in this case. Our member from Yellowknife is more likely to resort to sarcasm. Nothing wrong with sarcasm as such, but for Daggles it is employed as another form of trolling.

Now to the questions. Had Daggles availed himself to Google and typed in the following search terms - aids epidemic australia - chances were that the first hit would have been a Wikipedia article titled HIV/AIDS in Australia. That's what I got anyway. I looked because I did not know how AIDS affected Australia, nor how it was handled here.

This is the first paragraph from that article:

The history of HIV/AIDS in Australia is distinctive, as Australian government bodies recognised and responded to the AIDS pandemic relatively swiftly, with the implementation of effective disease prevention and public health programs, such as needle and syringe programs (NSPs). As a result, despite significant numbers of at-risk group members contracting the virus in the early period following its discovery, the country achieved and has maintained a low rate of HIV infection in comparison to the rest of the world.

This could of course be misinformation. After all, China controls the UN, WHO, NATO, the FBI and all other US government departments. Why wouldn't it also control Google and the Wikipedia? Maybe we should wait until our member from Yellowknife gets back to us with a report from a trusted site that is renowned for providing rock solid facts. The researchers at Parler are sure to have one or more of them at their fingertips.

[Scot Dutchy]

Japan's population density c.355 people/km², with the Netherlands being c.410 people/km². However, Japanese conurbations are significantly more densely populated than NL, with Tokyo for example seeing around 6000 people/km². So the population density is both lower overall in Japan than the Netherlands but also higher in the cities. Population density is primarily a factor in the speed a contagion spreads buts says very little about its lethality.

That's a fair apples to apples comparison for cherry picked data, Brian.

I don't know what to compare New Zealand with, but do you think Canada would be a decent comparison with Australia? It's less populous and has lower population density, and yet has 399 deaths and 14,647 case per million according to Worldometer, which suggests Straya's control measures are pretty effective.

Definitely not a fair comparison. Unfortunately for Canada, it shares a border with the US.

You cant compare any country to another which is why Hermit's pissing contests up the wall are useless as only your shoes get wet.

Sure you can. Policy makers do it all the time and rightfully so. If we believe this assertion, then the US healthcare system, with it's egregious inequality and cost, is just a natural function of the country's character. Comparisons to other countries put the lie to that, and provide support for American reformers.

As for Hermit's numbers, the order of magnitude difference between Australia, New Zealand, and Japan's numbers and those of other countries is very hard to attribute solely to national differences. Without strong evidence to the contrary, he's right that their policies have the situation under control when compared to other developed countries.

Never mind Joe keep sucking on that tit. Just learn a bit how governments deal with their data especially the US government. It is all political.

[pErvinalia]

Conspiracy theory. Where's your proof for this?

[Joe]

That's a fair apples to apples comparison for cherry picked data, Brian.

I don't know what to compare New Zealand with, but do you think Canada would be a decent comparison with Australia? It's less populous and has lower population density, and yet has 399 deaths and 14,647 case per million according to Worldometer, which suggests Straya's control measures are pretty effective.

Definitely not a fair comparison. Unfortunately for Canada, it shares a border with the US.

You cant compare any country to another which is why Hermit's pissing contests up the wall are useless as only your shoes get wet.

Sure you can. Policy makers do it all the time and rightfully so. If we believe this assertion, then the US healthcare system, with it's egregious inequality and cost, is just a natural function of the country's character. Comparisons to other countries put the lie to that, and provide support for American reformers.

As for Hermit's numbers, the order of magnitude difference between Australia, New Zealand, and Japan's numbers and those of other countries is very hard to attribute solely to national differences. Without strong evidence to the contrary, he's right that their policies have the situation under control when compared to other developed countries.

Never mind Joe keep sucking on that tit. Just learn a bit how governments deal with their data especially the US government. It is all political.

In other words, Hermit is right and you have no evidence to the contrary.

[Tero]

40 minutes with relative to deal with haircut kills woman and later husband. Masks don't work!
/sarcasm
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/29/us/covid ... index.html

[Cunt]

That's what I got anyway. I looked because I did not know how AIDS affected Australia, nor how it was handled here.

This is the first paragraph from that article:

The history of HIV/AIDS in Australia is distinctive, as Australian government bodies recognised and responded to the AIDS pandemic relatively swiftly, with the implementation of effective disease prevention and public health programs, such as needle and syringe programs (NSPs). As a result, despite significant numbers of at-risk group members contracting the virus in the early period following its discovery, the country achieved and has maintained a low rate of HIV infection in comparison to the rest of the world.

This could of course be misinformation. After all, China controls the UN, WHO,

I didn't know, and didn't google my own questions. Was just musing aloud, as it were.

It looks like Aussies ARE special, compliance-wise. I didn't expect that to be consistent across both examples. Weird.

I don't mind all the shitty accusations of trolling, by the way. You'll rant however you like, but I know if you wanted to disagree freely with me on something, you would do so in the right venue.

Another example of being accused of trolling is when I mentioned masks and countries where women are regularly veiled. It seems that it would be reflected in transmission rates, where face coverings were custom. I'm not dumb enough to think I'm qualified to sort out the statistics, but again, am musing about it because I think it is an interesting difference.

You sound smart a lot of the time, but I always consider a quote of yours, to help me remember how to value your facts. That only leaves your personality, and how the rest of your posts come across, as the primary value I can take from your offerings.

[Hermit]

That's what I got anyway. I looked because I did not know how AIDS affected Australia, nor how it was handled here.

This is the first paragraph from that article:

The history of HIV/AIDS in Australia is distinctive, as Australian government bodies recognised and responded to the AIDS pandemic relatively swiftly, with the implementation of effective disease prevention and public health programs, such as needle and syringe programs (NSPs). As a result, despite significant numbers of at-risk group members contracting the virus in the early period following its discovery, the country achieved and has maintained a low rate of HIV infection in comparison to the rest of the world.

This could of course be misinformation. After all, China controls the UN, WHO,

Was just musing aloud, as it were.

Just asking questions.

[Cunt]

You sound smart a lot of the time

[rainbow]

I didn't know, and didn't google my own questions. Was just musing aloud, as it were.

Quite. Ignorance is bliss, they say. You must be super-orgasmic, if that is the case.

Alternatively you could try wanking.

[Cunt]

I didn't know, and didn't google my own questions. Was just musing aloud, as it were.

Quite. Ignorance is bliss, they say. You must be super-orgasmic, if that is the case.

Alternatively you could try wanking.

Sure. I don't have a mask handy, though. May I borrow your hankie?

[Scot Dutchy]

Definitely not a fair comparison. Unfortunately for Canada, it shares a border with the US.

You cant compare any country to another which is why Hermit's pissing contests up the wall are useless as only your shoes get wet.

Sure you can. Policy makers do it all the time and rightfully so. If we believe this assertion, then the US healthcare system, with it's egregious inequality and cost, is just a natural function of the country's character. Comparisons to other countries put the lie to that, and provide support for American reformers.

As for Hermit's numbers, the order of magnitude difference between Australia, New Zealand, and Japan's numbers and those of other countries is very hard to attribute solely to national differences. Without strong evidence to the contrary, he's right that their policies have the situation under control when compared to other developed countries.

Never mind Joe keep sucking on that tit. Just learn a bit how governments deal with their data especially the US government. It is all political.

In other words, Hermit is right and you have no evidence to the contrary.

He has no evidence to support his claims which he is making. I suppose you are involved in the pissing up the wall contest as well.

[Hermit]

You cant compare any country to another which is why Hermit's pissing contests up the wall are useless as only your shoes get wet.

Sure you can. Policy makers do it all the time and rightfully so. If we believe this assertion, then the US healthcare system, with it's egregious inequality and cost, is just a natural function of the country's character. Comparisons to other countries put the lie to that, and provide support for American reformers.

As for Hermit's numbers, the order of magnitude difference between Australia, New Zealand, and Japan's numbers and those of other countries is very hard to attribute solely to national differences. Without strong evidence to the contrary, he's right that their policies have the situation under control when compared to other developed countries.

Never mind Joe keep sucking on that tit. Just learn a bit how governments deal with their data especially the US government. It is all political.

In other words, Hermit is right and you have no evidence to the contrary.

He has no evidence to support his claims which he is making. I suppose you are involved in the pissing up the wall contest as well.

Oh, yes I have. I have listed three countries where the pandemic is out of control, and three were it isn't, and I have given the statistics supporting the assertion. Here they are again:

Counties where the pandemic is out of control:

USA             1,028    59,029 
Sweden          817    39,095
Netherlands    641    44,480

Counties where the pandemic is under control:

New Zealand      5       429
Japan               25    1,721     
Australia          35    1,104

Your reply? "Who says they are out of control?" The answer is: the figures themselves.

You mentioned population density, but somehow neglected to provide evidence for how that is the determining factor rather than regulations. If you were correct, Monaco and Taiwan should have a higher death rate than the Netherlands. Neither do. The USA, Sweden, Portugal, Austria, France, Italy and several other countries should have a lower death rate than the Netherlands. They don't.

Rate of growth and containment of pandemics are very much multifactorial. I readily agree that population density is one of them, but government regulations are another, and I have repeatedly cited evidence of them having an impact too. In addition to the above I present these charts for the third or fourth time:







You called them "another load of unconfirmed data" and "worthless", but failed to show why they are either. Your rejection is based on nothing but emotion. Facts don't enter into your judgement.