All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:37 am

From Ani's post ☝
Rush Limbaugh wrote: ... There cannot be a peaceful coexistence of two completely different theories of life, theories of government, theories of how we manage our affairs. We can’t be in this dire a conflict without something giving somewhere along the way.
What about building a society on what we can agree on in our common interest rather than what we can't Rush?

The sentiment here is emblematic of the 'culture war', and despite the impotent, and downright misleading pleadings to the contrary coming from the Right and others aligned with Power, the instigation of this war is almost exclusively coming from those with Power and is being prosecuted against those without it.

I can't think of a better encapsulation of this phoney war than the words quoted above: it tells us that Power is intolerant of any idea, body, or person which challenges its self-assumed authority; it tells us that Power has no interest in compromise, no interest in 'peaceful coexistence' with perspectives or experiences different from its own; it tells us that Power has no impulse to reflect on the minority of its own perspectives or experience; it tells us that Power is prepared to act in extreme ways to secure its interests regardless of the consequences for the vast majority, and; it tells us that its justification for doing so is not merely the existence of intolerance towards its own intolerances but because it just wants to and can.

The founder of PayPal Peter Thiel recently told a symposium that he believes democracy is incompatible with the requirements of 'The Market' and that 'the Administrative State' is a fundamental barrier to competition. This is ironic because it is the peace and stability that democracy has brought to the West in the last 100 years or so, the laws and regulations which not only maintain a peaceful civil society but also protect persons and property, secures contracts, and allow generally impartial judicial systems to balance interests where conflict arises etc, that guarantees the functioning of 'The Market' in the first place.

Power seeks to undermine democracy for the sake of what? Acquiring more money, power and control over society. And yet without democracy there is no society and money devolves into status and power and control devolves into the the violence deemed necessary by Power to maintain that status.

This places the 'culture war' squarely in the historical arena of the 1000 years of religious wars before the Enlightenment. The Market is the new monotheism: people like Peter Thiel are its warlords, people like Limbaugh are its clerics, and "We, the people" are its chosen foe.
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by JimC » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:20 am

Brian, in some ways you are agreeing with Rush, that between us and them there is no real compromise...
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by rainbow » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:00 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:20 am
Brian, in some ways you are agreeing with Rush, that between us and them there is no real compromise...
Well there are only two kinds of people, those that think we should tolerate Fascists, but re-educate them.
...and those that think they should be taken out and shot.

I'm all for compromise between these views.
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:39 am

It's hard to see the gap being bridged. Not even sure what that would look like in the US. Probably some accord based around capitalism (what else?).
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:59 am

rainbow wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:00 am
JimC wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:20 am
Brian, in some ways you are agreeing with Rush, that between us and them there is no real compromise...
Well there are only two kinds of people, those that think we should tolerate Fascists, but re-educate them.
...and those that think they should be taken out and shot.

I'm all for compromise between these views.
If you have a democracy just leave them and before long they will have so many splits and bust ups they will obliterate themselves. Well that what happens here. The new party of old Pim Fortuyn followers called "Forum for Democracy" committed Hari Kari this week with a huge bust up. They have to make a list of candidates for the election in March. This will be almost impossible and at best be a very short one.
Right wingers will always exist but there greed for power is the reason they always will collapse. Just provide good alternatives and their numbers will drop or at worst remain stable.
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:50 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:20 am
Brian, in some ways you are agreeing with Rush, that between us and them there is no real compromise...
Functionally, but not in principle, we may appear to have similar views, but people like Limbaugh represent the interests of Power against ordinary people whereas my views start with the interests of ordinary people to the fore. I think democracy is vital because its the best way to secure progress and order and to suppress tyranny - which is something which defines our societies and, for want of a better term, our civilisation. We've had discussion recently about what forms democracy does, can, and might take, but on the whole I think more democracy is better than less, and some democracy is better than none at all. People like Limbaugh think democracy is a bad idea because it doesn't give them exactly what they want, but I'd characterise that as Power thinks democracy is a bad idea because it stops the powerful from exercising their power without constraint.

There is conflict here, a tension between the many and the few, and there always has been. The idea and practice of democracy offers society a means of addressing that tension in a peaceful, orderly manner. The irony I mentioned previously is that while democracy has resulted in the relative social stability and order that has allowed the powerful to pursue their interests within constraints Power now seems to have decided that enough-is-enough and has turned its attention to using the mechanisms of democracy to undermine the very thing which actually secured those interests: like narcissistic, nihilistic hedonists, it doesn't matter what they already have they're never satiated and always think they entitled to even MOAR! The supposed 'culture war', the idea that the nation state presents a barrier to market imperatives, and Limbaugh's apparent disavowing of the possibility of 'peaceful coexistence' is emblematic of this, as is Bannon's 'Fourth Wheel' or idea of 'The Great Reset' we've come across recently. All of these ideas promote the necessity of chaos over order, whether in the social, economic, or political sphere - and usually in all three.

As I've quoted before...
"So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists, as you can see from the barons' wars."
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:01 pm

Some people want power at any cost. Taking a chance with democracy is for them a too big a risk. So they change the rules to make sure they have power which is what happened when the US constitution was drawn up. The GOP wanted to be the natural ruling party so arranged the rules so that they always have the edge and due to the frequency of elections and the corruption that this allowed was the case.
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:37 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:37 am
From Ani's post ☝
Rush Limbaugh wrote: ... There cannot be a peaceful coexistence of two completely different theories of life, theories of government, theories of how we manage our affairs. We can’t be in this dire a conflict without something giving somewhere along the way.
What about building a society on what we can agree on in our common interest rather than what we can't Rush?

The sentiment here is emblematic of the 'culture war', and despite the impotent, and downright misleading pleadings to the contrary coming from the Right and others aligned with Power, the instigation of this war is almost exclusively coming from those with Power and is being prosecuted against those without it.

I can't think of a better encapsulation of this phoney war than the words quoted above: it tells us that Power is intolerant of any idea, body, or person which challenges its self-assumed authority; it tells us that Power has no interest in compromise, no interest in 'peaceful coexistence' with perspectives or experiences different from its own; it tells us that Power has no impulse to reflect on the minority of its own perspectives or experience; it tells us that Power is prepared to act in extreme ways to secure its interests regardless of the consequences for the vast majority, and; it tells us that its justification for doing so is not merely the existence of intolerance towards its own intolerances but because it just wants to and can.

The founder of PayPal Peter Thiel recently told a symposium that he believes democracy is incompatible with the requirements of 'The Market' and that 'the Administrative State' is a fundamental barrier to competition. This is ironic because it is the peace and stability that democracy has brought to the West in the last 100 years or so, the laws and regulations which not only maintain a peaceful civil society but also protect persons and property, secures contracts, and allow generally impartial judicial systems to balance interests where conflict arises etc, that guarantees the functioning of 'The Market' in the first place.

Power seeks to undermine democracy for the sake of what? Acquiring more money, power and control over society. And yet without democracy there is no society and money devolves into status and power and control devolves into the the violence deemed necessary by Power to maintain that status.

This places the 'culture war' squarely in the historical arena of the 1000 years of religious wars before the Enlightenment. The Market is the new monotheism: people like Peter Thiel are its warlords, people like Limbaugh are its clerics, and "We, the people" are its chosen foe.
What's phony about the disagreements between Republicans like Limbaugh and Democrats?
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Cunt » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:37 pm

rainbow wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:00 am
JimC wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:20 am
Brian, in some ways you are agreeing with Rush, that between us and them there is no real compromise...
Well there are only two kinds of people, those that think we should tolerate Fascists, but re-educate them.
...and those that think they should be taken out and shot.

I'm all for compromise between these views.
Do you find China, or the US more 'fascistic'?

What work has the brave and lily-white antifa done in real fascistic countries. I only see their activities in modern democracies, protesting things like people saying things, or listening to others saying things. They MUST be doing more work than that...
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Seabass » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:19 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:01 pm
Some people want power at any cost. Taking a chance with democracy is for them a too big a risk. So they change the rules to make sure they have power which is what happened when the US constitution was drawn up. The GOP wanted to be the natural ruling party so arranged the rules so that they always have the edge and due to the frequency of elections and the corruption that this allowed was the case.
The GOP didn't exist when the Constitution was written.
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by NineBerry » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:21 pm

Not in body but in spirit!

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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:50 pm

Amen.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by JimC » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:45 pm

NineBerry wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:21 pm
Not in body but in spirit!
I believe that spirit should be added to body.

Frequently... :drunk:
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:49 pm

Seabass wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:19 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:01 pm
Some people want power at any cost. Taking a chance with democracy is for them a too big a risk. So they change the rules to make sure they have power which is what happened when the US constitution was drawn up. The GOP wanted to be the natural ruling party so arranged the rules so that they always have the edge and due to the frequency of elections and the corruption that this allowed was the case.
The GOP didn't exist when the Constitution was written.
I agree with Jim.
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Re: All Things Trump: Is it over yet?

Post by Cunt » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:56 pm

JimC wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:45 pm
NineBerry wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:21 pm
Not in body but in spirit!
I believe that spirit should be added to body.

Frequently... :drunk:
I disagree with you on much, and spirits sounds a bit like wooberish.

But I'll try to remain open-minded.
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Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate
Free speech anywhere, is a threat to tyrants everywhere.

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