US Election 2020

[Sean Hayden]

I'm sorry, but that's special pleading. It is not a mystery that for any other endeavor some are qualified, and others are not.

Furthermore, nothing need prevent Tom from attempting to become qualified.

[JimC]

I'm sorry, but that's special pleading. It is not a mystery that for any other endeavor some are qualified, and others are not.

Furthermore, nothing need prevent Tom from attempting to become qualified.

"any other endeavor" is for specific competencies. Democratic inclusion is in a different category; it is how people participate in the way in which their community is run.

I think the US mania for electing everybody is responsible for your reaction to this. I don't want my local law enforcement officers or the town dog catchers to be elected because they are popular, I want them appointed by intelligent human resource managers within a regulated governed agency because they are competent in their field, and that competency has been tested.

But above and beyond that, we need every human in a community (with some age restrictions) to feel that they have a stake in the overall game.

[JimC]

Trump supporters have already initiated violence against the Biden campaign:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-02/ ... y/12838766

Several videos on social media show dozens of SUVs bearing Trump campaign livery and American flags crowding around the bus on its way from San Antonio to Austin on Saturday local time.

CNN reported that people in up to 100 vehicles were in the "Trump train" with some yelling profanities and obscenities.

One of the videos appears to show a Trump supporter's SUV making contact with another unmarked car.

The Texas Tribune newspaper reported that the sideswiped vehicle was being driven by a Biden campaign staffer.

Naturally, Trump praised his brownshirts:

United States President Donald Trump has expressed admiration for supporters who surrounded a Biden campaign bus driving on a Texas highway, in an incident being investigated by the FBI.

Mr Trump told a campaign rally his supporters were attempting to "protect" the bus

Mr Trump tweeted one of the videos saying: "I LOVE TEXAS!"

And so it begins...

[Sean Hayden]

I'm sorry, but that's special pleading. It is not a mystery that for any other endeavor some are qualified, and others are not.

Furthermore, nothing need prevent Tom from attempting to become qualified.

"any other endeavor" is for specific competencies. Democratic inclusion is in a different category; it is how people participate in the way in which their community is run.

I think the US mania for electing everybody is responsible for your reaction to this. I don't want my local law enforcement officers or the town dog catchers to be elected because they are popular, I want them appointed by intelligent human resource managers within a regulated governed agency because they are competent in their field, and that competency has been tested.

But above and beyond that, we need every human in a community (with some age restrictions) to feel that they have a stake in the overall game.

It is not just some abstract exercise whereby we assuage our need to feel in control. Leaders make promises to take action. Understanding the consequences requires an understanding of the problems being addressed. For this reason, an ignorant vote is like hiring the unqualified.

[Hermit]

Besides, democracy is stupid. It won't be the last word on better governments.

What would be a better government?

[pErvinalia]

This is an argument for better education, not less democracy.

I don't think it is. In fact, part of the problem with democracy may be that it can contribute to an unhealthy denial of reality.

How does democracy contribute to denial of reality?

[Sean Hayden]

Besides, democracy is stupid. It won't be the last word on better governments.

What would be a better government?

I don't know.

[JimC]

I'm sorry, but that's special pleading. It is not a mystery that for any other endeavor some are qualified, and others are not.

Furthermore, nothing need prevent Tom from attempting to become qualified.

"any other endeavor" is for specific competencies. Democratic inclusion is in a different category; it is how people participate in the way in which their community is run.

I think the US mania for electing everybody is responsible for your reaction to this. I don't want my local law enforcement officers or the town dog catchers to be elected because they are popular, I want them appointed by intelligent human resource managers within a regulated governed agency because they are competent in their field, and that competency has been tested.

But above and beyond that, we need every human in a community (with some age restrictions) to feel that they have a stake in the overall game.

It is not just some abstract exercise whereby we assuage our need to feel in control. Leaders make promises to take action. Understanding the consequences requires an understanding of the problems being addressed. For this reason, an ignorant vote is like hiring the unqualified.

But again, who decides what is an "ignorant vote"? Very soon, going down that path becomes an exercise in partisan politics...

[Sean Hayden]

This is an argument for better education, not less democracy.

I don't think it is. In fact, part of the problem with democracy may be that it can contribute to an unhealthy denial of reality.

How does democracy contribute to denial of reality?

A few examples: voters are encouraged to participate rather than ask if they are qualified. Leaders stand to gain from manipulation that is inherently difficult to combat in large, diverse populations.

[rainbow]

This is an argument for better education, not less democracy.

I don't think it is. In fact, part of the problem with democracy may be that it can contribute to an unhealthy denial of our limits.

When you start to argue that some part of the population is, for whatever reason, not competent to have a say in the affairs of their own community, it becomes a slippery slope of dangerous proportions. Who decides whether citizen X has less rights in decision making than citizen Y?

So rEv's counter is valid, at least in theory. In the meantime, it's better to err on the side of more inclusive participation in decision making than the reverse, even with a certain level of community stupidity. The alternative is the rise of self-serving elites...

Do they still fine people in OZ for not voting?

[Sean Hayden]

I'm sorry, but that's special pleading. It is not a mystery that for any other endeavor some are qualified, and others are not.

Furthermore, nothing need prevent Tom from attempting to become qualified.

"any other endeavor" is for specific competencies. Democratic inclusion is in a different category; it is how people participate in the way in which their community is run.

I think the US mania for electing everybody is responsible for your reaction to this. I don't want my local law enforcement officers or the town dog catchers to be elected because they are popular, I want them appointed by intelligent human resource managers within a regulated governed agency because they are competent in their field, and that competency has been tested.

But above and beyond that, we need every human in a community (with some age restrictions) to feel that they have a stake in the overall game.

It is not just some abstract exercise whereby we assuage our need to feel in control. Leaders make promises to take action. Understanding the consequences requires an understanding of the problems being addressed. For this reason, an ignorant vote is like hiring the unqualified.

But again, who decides what is an "ignorant vote"? Very soon, going down that path becomes an exercise in partisan politics...

Why should the solution require anything more than what is already in place, are your institutions incapable of establishing standards, and then enforcing them?

[pErvinalia]

This is an argument for better education, not less democracy.

I don't think it is. In fact, part of the problem with democracy may be that it can contribute to an unhealthy denial of reality.

How does democracy contribute to denial of reality?

A few examples: voters are encouraged to participate rather than ask if they are qualified.

People have the right to vote. They aren't denying reality. They are participating in it.

[pErvinalia]

This is an argument for better education, not less democracy.

I don't think it is. In fact, part of the problem with democracy may be that it can contribute to an unhealthy denial of our limits.

When you start to argue that some part of the population is, for whatever reason, not competent to have a say in the affairs of their own community, it becomes a slippery slope of dangerous proportions. Who decides whether citizen X has less rights in decision making than citizen Y?

So rEv's counter is valid, at least in theory. In the meantime, it's better to err on the side of more inclusive participation in decision making than the reverse, even with a certain level of community stupidity. The alternative is the rise of self-serving elites...

Do they still fine people in OZ for not voting?

Yep. Although, you only need to offer a flimsy excuse to get out of it. I've got out of it twice when I fucked up and didn't vote.

[pErvinalia]

I'm sorry, but that's special pleading. It is not a mystery that for any other endeavor some are qualified, and others are not.

Furthermore, nothing need prevent Tom from attempting to become qualified.

"any other endeavor" is for specific competencies. Democratic inclusion is in a different category; it is how people participate in the way in which their community is run.

I think the US mania for electing everybody is responsible for your reaction to this. I don't want my local law enforcement officers or the town dog catchers to be elected because they are popular, I want them appointed by intelligent human resource managers within a regulated governed agency because they are competent in their field, and that competency has been tested.

But above and beyond that, we need every human in a community (with some age restrictions) to feel that they have a stake in the overall game.

It is not just some abstract exercise whereby we assuage our need to feel in control. Leaders make promises to take action. Understanding the consequences requires an understanding of the problems being addressed. For this reason, an ignorant vote is like hiring the unqualified.

But again, who decides what is an "ignorant vote"? Very soon, going down that path becomes an exercise in partisan politics...

Why should the solution require anything more than what is already in place, are your institutions incapable of establishing standards, and then enforcing them?

But what standards and who decides? Are all people outside the norm of centrist views prohibited the vote because they don't hold "acceptable" civic views? Sounds like that article I found a couple of weeks ago where the UK education department was considering categorising as extreme and banning any views that state capitalism isn't good for society.

[Sean Hayden]

This is an argument for better education, not less democracy.

I don't think it is. In fact, part of the problem with democracy may be that it can contribute to an unhealthy denial of reality.

How does democracy contribute to denial of reality?

A few examples: voters are encouraged to participate rather than ask if they are qualified.

People have the right to vote. They aren't denying reality. They are participating in it.

If that were all the reality there is.

Another component is recognizing strengths and weaknesses. By promoting participation regardless of qualifications, democracy may contribute to denial of what we don't know, which is itself a barrier to education.