US Election 2020

[Tero]

Pennsylvania will go to Trump because Biden, like Hillary, wants to kill babies!
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/10/06/opin ... index.html

[laklak]

It's humane to kill them before cooking.

[Tero]

[Seabass]

...

Steady on there Seabass. I didn't say that the parties were the same, just that they are both rampant capitalists whose political and personal interests lie in shoring up that system. Why do you find that so triggering? If I had a stake in the election I'd be voting Democrat, but that doesn't mean that I sign up to their grand vision of some kind of socially-responsible version of capitalism. One cannot be socially progressive and economically conservative - which is essentially the Democrat position is it not? - because social policy and economic policy are inextricably intertwined: social policy is economic policy.

Lol. No, Brian, what triggers me is when white guys tell me I should be nicer to white nationalists.

Don't be racisty.

What triggers me is when white dudes tell me that a political organization that wants to eliminate people who look like me and another political organization that accepts people who look like me are basically the same. What triggers me is when white people tell me that I'm the one doing the dehumanizing when I say mean things about people who don't think folks who look like me are "real Americans".

I don't think it would be productive to get into a competition here over which one of us is more of a victim in our society than the other.

The only place that's happening is in your head.

Firstly, you're assuming far too much about me and who I am I'm afraid, and consequently I feel no compulsion to justify my point of view on the basis of how oppressed you think I am, or should be, relative to you.

I'm not making assumptions about you. I'm telling you that a white Brit telling a yellow Merkin living in Trumpmerica that both parties are the same is pretty much exactly like a white Brit telling a German Jew circa 1930 that both parties are the same. It's crazy, given how cartoonishly racist the Republican party has become.

Secondly, where the system seeks to glibly divide us into winners and losers, the strong and the weak, the virtuous and the ignoble, the predators and their natural prey, etc, it's our job as progressive idealists to refute and negate those kinds of convenient categorisations

That's my job? That's news to me.

Also, I'm not a "progressive idealist". I'm just a guy who'd prefer not to have bigots and anti-science morons in positions of power.

- not simply because they're fictitious categories that do not reflect the reality of modern life, but because they're propagated by Power for Power and always put Power at the top of the pile. Who's telling you that performative victimhood justifies or legitimises one's perspective? The Right, that's who - because they play the #OUTRAGED and #BUMHURT card if the wind blows in the wrong direction on a Wednesday afternoon. I have no use for that paradigm.

"Performative victimhood", WTF? You don't think us colored types have legitimate reason to be concerned that racist fascists have taken over the government and violence against minorities is up by a factor of 200-300% in some places?!

While we're discussing triggering, why does it trigger you when I say nasty things about Trumpists? These are people who think that in order for America to be made great again, it has to be made white and Christian, because non-whites and non-christians can only ever be moochers. Or to put another way, in order to restore health to the volkskörper, the parasites and impurities must be eliminated. But somehow, I'm the bad guy for calling them "Trumpzis"...

If it bothers me when you call everyone who voted Trump a racist its probably because I see it as a waste of time and energy, time and energy that could be put into something more productive and beneficial for the community at large. It's a waste of what Chomsky once called energised idealism. I've talked about this in similar terms before but you seem reluctant to be charitable on this matter.

I didn't realize that I was under some obligation to engage only in behavior that is productive and beneficial for the community at large. Are other Ratzians under this obligation, or is just me? Moreover, I've already explained to you that I continue to exist as a real boy in the real world when I'm not posting on Ratz. If I'm being unproductive on Ratz, it does not necessarily follow that I'm not being productive outside of Ratz.

I've also mentioned why I think "racist" sloganising is just another kind of easy categorisation that separates people into good and evil, worthy and unworthy, us and them, and that it takes no account the individual's material conditions and/or their place or role within a system they have little or no control over. Not to mention that calling an entire voting demographic racist is to engage in the parlance of the culture war - and only the Right can win that one I'm afraid. We have to find a different paradigm.

I'll call the Republican party racist as long as it keeps doing racist stuff. Would you ask a German Jew not to call the Nazi party racist? Because that would be a crazy expectation.

And before you get all hot and bothered and accuse me of ignoring or excusing real racism and racists, as you have before: racism and racists have to be opposed for the good of the entire community, and that opposition has to meet those destructive forces on their own ground, whether that be with strong words, milkshakes, or cricket bats. However, as most people identifying with the Right side of politics have been tricked, manipulated, and relentlessly bullied by the system

You're wrong. It's the racism that has led to the system in its current form, not the other way around. Why does this country have shit safety nets? Racism. Why does it have more guns than people? Racism. Why the obscene income inequality? Racism. This country was built on the extirpation of one race and the enslavement of another. Putting the extreme capitalism first and racism second is putting the cart before the horse.

into accepting that the worst excesses of neo-liberalism are a fact-of-life - in a situation where fascism is merely liberalisms self-defence mechanism - then holding each of them individually to account for those excesses not only forecloses on the possibility of them changing their minds, but in facts negates that very possibility entirely. In this regard all one would be doing is justifying their self-identification with neo-liberalism and then helping them entrench those ideas as norms. I'm quite prepared to argue my point and defend it as best I can, but I stake no claim to the moral high ground - I prefer to leave that to those who are so absolutely convinced of their own rectitude that there is no longer any need for them to think about anything more than once.

So, now I've got that off my chest...

Did you watch the video?

Not yet. I'll make you a deal. I'll watch the video if you read the following:

It's Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism

Dark Money: The Hidden History of the Billionaires Behind the Rise of the Radical Right

It Was All a Lie: How the Republican Party Became Donald Trump

The Evangelicals: The Struggle to Shape America

Hitler's American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law

Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right's Stealth Plan for America

Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents

Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship at the Altar of Donald Trump

If you read at least a couple of these, you'll have a deeper understanding the current state of US politics. Right now, it seems that your understanding of US politics amounts to: "both sides are capitalist".

Only I noticed you haven't really made a fair attempt to represent, honestly reflect, or comment on the points I made in the posts you've been quoting. My first comment was short of course - merely a pithy encapsulation of an idea. You seemed to take it as an unjustified attack on the Democrats and slapped the Goodwin card down on the table for good measure, presumably to put me in my place. My second (abouve) went a little further in describing a broader view, but to that you appeared uninterested, and far keener on attacking me for not understanding what it's like to be an oppressed minority, because you assume that I cannot belong to one, or even two, minorities on the basis of what? My race, perhaps, eh? Still have nothing to say on the matter? Then let me be a little more explicit for you just in case...

Well, how would you feel if a bunch of racist authoritarians took over your government, and then for the next four years had to keep hearing white people tell you that both sides are the same. It's almost as if white people who live in white majority countries don't know what it's like to be an ethnic minority in the racist-ass United States. Sorry if I'm getting a little tired of the whitesplaining. Again, think about how ridiculous it would have been for white people to tell Jews living in Germany in the '20s that the Nazis and Social Democrats were the same. I don't see how bothsidesing the Dems and Rs is any different. And to be clear I'm talking about bothsidesing in the current era. Yes, I know the Dems were were the party of the Confederacy and the KKK and Jim Crow. But right now, in 2020, clearly the racists vote Republican. And yes, if you dig, you can find non-whites bothsidesing, but for the most part it comes from white people. There is a reason Dems get 90% of the black vote. They know what the Republican party is. And look at any picture of the current Congress. There's literally one black Republican congressman. The Dems are a lot more colorful. It's almost as if one party is less appealing to us darkies for some reason...

My problem, such that it is, is with liberalism and liberals. Here I mean liberals in the traditional social and economic sense rather than 'liberals' in the American cultural sense. Notwithstanding their outward differences, the political institutions of both American parties have their foundations in the unreconstructed social and economic ideals of liberalism, with the Republicans merely being what I'd call 'no-bullshit liberals', that is; liberals who are prepared to take liberalism to its logical conclusion without any heed for the mess or misery they leave in their wake. The Democrats might be a little more reluctant, or squeamish, to take liberalism to such extremes, and they may genuinely believe they can harness Capital interests for social good, but at the same time they don't strike me as the kind of political organisation that wants to limit or curtail Capital interests - not least perhaps because their personal and political interests rely on the income stream Capital provides. After all, politics is an expensive business these days isn't it(?)

However, I am absolutely not saying that both parties are exactly the same. I'm just pointing out that they are both liberal parties in a system where liberalism is the justifying ideology of Capitalism, and Capitalism is the current over-arching system of Power. But is it really surprising that the Democrats represent interests of liberalism? Aren't we all liberals these days, in the sense that liberalism is the framework on which we've built our social, economic, and political architecture for at least a couple of hundred years now - the means by which we live our lives, succeed or fail, live or die? Isn't liberalism the only game in town, and if so, how do you think that's working out for us down here on the bottom of the pile?

Yes, exactly. So if liberalism is the framework that the western hemisphere is built on, I don't see why you feel it necessary to keep singling out the Dems for bothsidesing with the Republicans. And don't bother denying the bothsidesing. I mean, clearly, a statement like this is deliberately designed to imply that there is little difference between the two:

Policy platforms of two main parties:

Republicans: more and harder capitalism.
Democrats: more and better capitalism.

And again, just to reiterate, because it seems I keep having to explain this: I don't think the Dems are perfect. I didn't join them until the GOP became fascist under Trump. I'm not some Democrat fanboi. In fact, I really dislike the Democratic leadership (Pelosi, Schumer, ect) and I hope the Bernie wing takes over. But again, the Social Democrats of Germany weren't perfect, but the alternative was the friggin' Nazis. I think we've entered into a situation similar to that in the US...

[Tero]

Trump signal to his base:

7F4CD09B-4B0B-48DC-A11C-5A78B98272F9.jpeg (61.78 KiB) Viewed 1576 times

"You are not going to see a dollar of stimulus unless you get me re-elected. By whatever means."

[Brian Peacock]

Seabass. Racism is not just a feature of Capitalism, it's one of its driving principles. The systems we're obliged to live under make racism a necessity. If you want to address racism in society, such that you and others don't have to live constantly looking over your shoulder, then you have to address the system directly.

You assume that I cannot empathise, let alone understand what's its like to be discriminated against for who and what a person is; to be punched in the face by random strangers, to be spat on in the street, shouted at from passing cars, barracked by school children, challenged and physically assaulted in the super-market or at the railway station, to receive no interviews from 50 job applications, to be excluded from public spaces, shops, nightclubs or theatres, to be told by those in Power that I'm less than human, a drain on the economy, a lazy, feckless wastrel and therefore fair game for the petty whims of arbitrary and punitive bureaucracies, and to told that I'm ultimately responsible for all of this because of who and what I am? And why can't I understand what it's like for you? Because I'm a white Brit, even though all those things and more have been a fixture in my life since I was old enough to know better. Get a grip man and expand your outlook. Racism is just one feature of an organised and exploitative system. Sure, join a mainstream party. Help get the vote out. Get Trump out. Fuck knows America needs it. But then what? The Power isn't going to just melt away into the night is it? No, it's going to double down, like it always has. Are you ready for that?

[Tero]

trump re-elected terrible.jpg (23.97 KiB) Viewed 1572 times

[JimC]

Seabass. Racism is not just a feature of Capitalism, it's one of its driving principles. The systems we're obliged to live under make racism a necessity. If you want to address racism in society, such that you and others don't have to live constantly looking over your shoulder, then you have to address the system directly.

I don't think that racism is an automatic feature of Capitalism. Current iterations of Capitalism are inter-twined with it, but that is due to historical processes of colonialism and slavery. It would be possible to have a fully Capitalist but multi-racial society in which the colour of your skin is unimportant in comparison to your economic position.

Having said that, racism is currently used and manipulated by powerful forces for the benefit of themselves, and to sow division of the underclass...

[Brian Peacock]

I think you just rebuffed your own point there Jim.

[laklak]

Swaziland is capitalist. Almost libertarian capitalist. So there's that.

[JimC]

I think you just rebuffed your own point there Jim.

No, my point is that racism does not have to be a required feature of a capitalist economic system, which was your contention. I agree that it is certainly enmeshed in most of the current iterations of capitalism around the world.

To reverse the logic, racism has certainly been alive and well in communist regimes of the past, so a move away from the Capitalist economic model does not guarantee eliminating racism...

[pErvinalia]

Racism is not just a feature of Capitalism, it's one of its driving principles.

You'll have to expand on that. Exploitation is a driving principle of capitalism. Colour of those exploited is irrelevant.

[macdoc]

Exploitation is a driving principle of capitalism

Incorrect ....exploitation is a driving principle of predation.

Capitalism needs neither growth nor exploitation.

A baker serving a town needs capital for his equipment and labour for his staff to provide baked goods to his customers. He does not need to grow to survive, he does not need to exploit staff, customers or the environment.

Hofpfisterei is a chain of bakery shops, headquartered in Munich, Bavaria, Germany. Its business focusses on southern Germany. It has 163 branches and employs about 950 people. Its history reaches back to the year 1331 when the mill Toratsmühle was mentioned for the first time.

Now the owners can choose to be predatory or not ....there is nothing inherent in the use of capital, labour or ideas that needs to be exploitive.
It's a choice.

capitalism made me do it ??? .....bollocks.

[Tero]

Trump to manipulate electors at state level using his GOP

[pErvinalia]

Exploitation is a driving principle of capitalism

Incorrect ....exploitation is a driving principle of predation.

Capitalism needs neither growth nor exploitation.

A baker serving a town needs capital for his equipment and labour for his staff to provide baked goods to his customers. He does not need to grow to survive, he does not need to exploit staff, customers or the environment.

Hofpfisterei is a chain of bakery shops, headquartered in Munich, Bavaria, Germany. Its business focusses on southern Germany. It has 163 branches and employs about 950 people. Its history reaches back to the year 1331 when the mill Toratsmühle was mentioned for the first time.

Now the owners can choose to be predatory or not ....there is nothing inherent in the use of capital, labour or ideas that needs to be exploitive.
It's a choice.

capitalism made me do it ??? .....bollocks.

People need to sell their labour or die (or at best live a really shitty life). That's exploitation.