China, a real and present danger

[Cunt]

Before all this, they got caught engaging in some propaganda efforts. I doubt those have been halted.

Do you think they are wealthy or canny enough to have any major news organizations in their pocket? Or are governments too stupid to accomplish that level of coordination?

[JimC]

Brian Peacock wrote:

Don't get me wrong here. In saying this I'm not excusing China - let alone praising them. I'm saying that there's wider structural forces at work and that as capitalism requires and necessitates the exploitation of labour it follows that the Global North's relationship with China is the capitalist paradigm played out on a global context. By my lights, focusing on China as bearing the brunt of responsibility for 'releasing' Covid-19 into the global economy is essentially no different to the Victorian mill owner chiding their exploited workforce for lacking the natural capacity or requisite moral fortitude to resist contracting diphtheria or rickets - how dare your sickness limit my ability to make a profit. Morrison my not be explicitly labelling Covid-19 as China's virus, as 'the Chinese virus' like the US president has, but he's still personifying the infection and locating it in the 'body' of China and Chinese people nonetheless - which is to say he's still working for Western capital interests like Trump is even as he calls his proposed inquiry 'entirely sensible and reasonable'.

It may well be true that some of the motivation from Morrison and/or other western leaders for an inquiry is political gamesmanship of one sort or another. However, a cynical, anti-capitalist analysis does not mean that a broad, objective international inquiry is not warranted or in fact vital. I would see issues about the start of the virus in Wuhan, and any Chinese government failings at the time as just one initial part of the survey. You may be right in your earlier statement that the inquiry may not bring anything more about this than we already know, but there may still be some vital information.

I don't see this at all as a "bash China" inquiry, and any attempt by western leaders to do so should be resisted. The pandemic is a world-scale disaster, so any inquiry needs to be world scale. The truly pressing reason for a well-run inquiry is to learn valuable lessons before the next, virtually inevitable pandemic, most probably via another zoonotic virus.

[Cunt]

Does that Chinese tech giant Trump was ranting about, still provide telecom services in most of the developed world?

[JimC]

Can you manage to post without continually asking inane questions?

[Cunt]

I can't tell if you are trying to be insulting, or if you genuinely don't understand the question.

[Brian Peacock]

Brian Peacock wrote:

...Morrison has excluded looking at climate change in the Royal Commission report on the fires when climate change is a global issue that effects us all and can't (or at least shouldn't) just be excised from the public discussion.

Not really true:

https://naturaldisaster.royalcommission.gov.au

The Commission is holding hearings to gather evidence about coordination, preparedness for, response to and recovery from disasters as well as improving resilience and adapting to changing climatic conditions and mitigating the impact of natural disasters.

So, climate change is part of the brief. The way it's stated does look a bit fatalistic, and I'd prefer a more robust mention, but it cannot be said that it has been excluded.

Yeah, talking about adapting future responses to changing climate conditions isn't looking at the impact of climate change on the fires.

[JimC]

However, in media reports about the people who will appear before the commission, there are lots who will give a very straightforward, scientific account of the way climate change increases both the chances of, and the severity of bushfires. I'm pretty certain that the final report will recognise this clearly. However, how much action will result is another matter...

[Brian Peacock]

Brian Peacock wrote:

Don't get me wrong here. In saying this I'm not excusing China - let alone praising them. I'm saying that there's wider structural forces at work and that as capitalism requires and necessitates the exploitation of labour it follows that the Global North's relationship with China is the capitalist paradigm played out on a global context. By my lights, focusing on China as bearing the brunt of responsibility for 'releasing' Covid-19 into the global economy is essentially no different to the Victorian mill owner chiding their exploited workforce for lacking the natural capacity or requisite moral fortitude to resist contracting diphtheria or rickets - how dare your sickness limit my ability to make a profit. Morrison my not be explicitly labelling Covid-19 as China's virus, as 'the Chinese virus' like the US president has, but he's still personifying the infection and locating it in the 'body' of China and Chinese people nonetheless - which is to say he's still working for Western capital interests like Trump is even as he calls his proposed inquiry 'entirely sensible and reasonable'.

It may well be true that some of the motivation from Morrison and/or other western leaders for an inquiry is political gamesmanship of one sort or another. However, a cynical, anti-capitalist analysis does not mean that a broad, objective international inquiry is not warranted or in fact vital. I would see issues about the start of the virus in Wuhan, and any Chinese government failings at the time as just one initial part of the survey. You may be right in your earlier statement that the inquiry may not bring anything more about this than we already know, but there may still be some vital information.

I don't see this at all as a "bash China" inquiry, and any attempt by western leaders to do so should be resisted. The pandemic is a world-scale disaster, so any inquiry needs to be world scale. The truly pressing reason for a well-run inquiry is to learn valuable lessons before the next, virtually inevitable pandemic, most probably via another zoonotic virus.

The WHO will inevitably produce a report on the pandemic, but the votaries of the conservative meat machine have already got their retaliation in first on that one - the WHO are a lacky of the CCP and so can't be trusted. It seems to me that what Morrison is hoping for is to stick his leg into the process to ensure that there's the 'right' kind of report into the pandemic, one which apportions blame where its due and doesn't criticise the response of Western governments which dragged their feet and put capital interests before both the real economy and their own citizens lives.

I don't think my analysis is cynical - but I would say that wouldn't I? - because from a capitalist perspective it clearly does benefit the economies of the Global North to outsource manufacturing to regions where the difference between the value of labour on the production side and the cost of consumables on the market side is at its greatest. Western capital markets have every reason to keep China in their place, and China has every reason to keep its population in its place too. Nonetheless, I also think that the crisis has the potential to force a set of positive attitude and behavioural changes in Western society that will be difficult for conservatism to turn back, which is exactly what the rabid marketeers are getting jittery about - but that's probably a discussion for a different thread.

[rainbow]

[laklak]

Probably radioactive clay made with puppy skin and elephant bones.

[Cunt]

the WHO is in thrall to the CCP, but I've recently heard a less satisfying, more disappointing explanation, which probably fits...

As a global institution, they will ALWAYS fold to pressure from a nation.

The example given were other countries pressuring the WHO, such as Guinea. Not exactly wealthy or influential, but still effective vs WHO.

It reminds me that any org that wants to maintain access to those countries, will HAVE to knuckle under for some of that access.

So maybe it isn't their villany, as much as it is the org's mandate diluted by dozens of countries.

[Brian Peacock]

Yes. It doesn't help their mission to antagonise nations and so they maintain a policy of not speaking out against any particular government. Even their declaration of a global health emergency was a diplomatic way of telling countries like the UK, Australia and the US to pull their bloody finger out. Only when that didn't work did they go all in and declare a pandemic - and even then governments still told their citizens it was a Chinese problem, or only an issue for countries with inferior health systems.

[Cunt]

It looks like globalism is kind of self-defeating in that instance.

Strangely reminds me of how online platforms CAN NOT support free speech. I think because of the fact that commerce is attached (or money is attached)

The ruin of the institutional trusts will be tough to deal with, but may be inevitable. Weinstein mentioned in a podcast, that wikipedia MUST have an 'authoritative source' to reference, or there should not be a wikipedia article...

Leaves us blowing in the wind a bit. Even with our crowdthinking.

[Sean Hayden]

blowing in the wind...till you stub your toe or jam your finger; because that's how we actually live. --not as some actors on the global stage fighting tremendous forces for the good of all humanity...but right here in our living rooms with our fat fucking black 'n blue toe...

[Cunt]

blowing in the wind...till you stub your toe or jam your finger; because that's how we actually live. --not as some actors on the global stage fighting tremendous forces for the good of all humanity...but right here in our living rooms with our fat fucking black 'n blue toe...

The point I was making, could also be described like this...

When this started, my first thought was 'see what the WHO/CDC/HealthCanada were saying, and ignore contrarian opinions'.

The erosion of that trust, means that I have to do a lot more cognitive work, to reach the same place (use masks usefully)

With fucking DECADES of seeing masks in use, they advise against it?

Anyway, the information (stubbed toe) is the same. Their noise used to seem a lot less contraversial, a lot more helpful.