China, a real and present danger

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China, a real and present danger

Post by JimC » Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:14 am

This thread is for analysis of the Chinese government's policies and actions. Clearly, via my title, I've angled it towards negative effects, but please feel free to illustrate any positives...

I want to make it clear that this has zero connection to any form of racism whatsoever.

To kick things off, an article in the Age discussing the Chinese ambassador's response to a suggestion from our foreign minister that an independent inquiry was needed to investigate the initial phases of the pandemic:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/chin ... 54nhj.html
Well, the bad times are now upon us, courtesy of the made-in-China pandemic. And what has China's official representative in Canberra done? Ambassador Cheng has openly threatened Australia with trade boycotts.

Why? Because Prime Minister Scott Morrison last week dared to suggest an inquiry into the origins of the coronavirus pandemic. "The Chinese public is frustrated, dismayed and disappointed with what Australia is doing now," Cheng said in an interview with The Australian Financial Review's Andrew Tillett, published on Monday.

"If the mood is going from bad to worse, people would think, 'Why should we go to such a country that is not so friendly to China? The tourists may have second thoughts.

"The parents of the students would also think whether this place which they found is not so friendly, even hostile, whether this is the best place to send their kids here.

"It is up to the people to decide. Maybe the ordinary people will say, 'Why should we drink Australian wine? Eat Australian beef?'"

Cheng said that it was a political move in league with the US: "So what is being done by the Australia side, the proposition is a kind of teaming up with those forces in Washington and to launch a kind of political campaign against China."

He said the idea of an inquiry was "dangerous". His overall position is foolish. But his claim that the proposed inquiry could be "dangerous" is just hilarious. Who's the dangerous actor here?

Is it China? The country whose reckless indifference to public health again inflicted a zoonotic plague on the world, so far infecting 3 million people and killing more than 200,000 in 210 countries? Or is it Australia, for suggesting an inquiry?

And if Cheng thinks the idea of an inquiry might be dangerous to China's authorities, it suggests the Beijing regime has a lot to hide.

As for the foolishness of Cheng's position, it's threefold. First, he's been foolish enough to expose the reality of Beijing's intentions towards Australia. The CCP seeks dominance, through any means possible. This has long been the reality of the Xi regime. I recounted examples of China's economic coercion against 11 countries in my Quarterly Essay, Red Flag, published last year.

But, to now, the party's functionaries have delivered their threats and pressure tactics in private and coercion has never been declared openly. Now we all see the truth – there is no goodwill, only gangsterism.

Second, "it's a pretty inept piece of Wolf Warrior diplomacy because he's huffing and puffing after the house has already blown down – China has already done more damage to our economy than any boycotts could," says Rory Medcalf, head of the ANU's National Security College. Wolf Warrior was a hugely popular piece of Chinese hypernationalist cinema released in 2017.

And third, Cheng's comments are foolish because an open attempt to intimidate Morrison can only serve to rally Australia around the Prime Minister.

The Foreign Affairs Minister, Marise Payne, coolly rejected "any suggestion that economic coercion is an appropriate response to a call for such an assessment, when what is needed is global co-operation".

Critically, the opposition foreign affairs spokesperson, Labor's Penny Wong, stood firm with the government. "I'd make the point that the Chinese ambassador spoke about not wanting to resort to recrimination, division and suspicion and what I'd say is that's precisely why we are supporting a call for an independent inquiry into the origin of the virus," she said. "We have to press what is right, what we believe is right, for us and for the international community, and making sure that humanity understands how this virus started is the right thing to do."

Even Australia's business leaders, consistent Beijing boosters, can not possibly support China on this.

But Cheng's foolishness is Australia's fortune. It is now plain for all to see that the CCP is waging political war on Australia, using trade as a weapon. This is Australia's moment of clarity. Australia has allowed itself to become more dependent on Chinese trade today than it has on any single nation since Britain in the 1960s and 1970s.

That ended in profound shock when Britain cut its trade preferences with Australia to join the European Common Market in 1973. We failed to remember our history and we have repeated our error.

Now the virus, and the Chinese Communist Party's conduct, have exposed the urgent imperative for Australia to diversify its risk and defend its sovereignty.

Australia does not accept threats and intimidation from any other nation as the basis for relations. Thank you, Ambassador Cheng, for removing the mask so that we can all clearly see the features of the gangster beneath.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by Hermit » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 am

Powers will expand wherever they can, and that is what China has been doing all along. Right now it is turning islands in territorially disputed parts of the South China Sea into military bases. All powers, regardless of the forms of their governments do that sort of thing. All of them are real and present dangers to their neighbours.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by JimC » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:54 am

Hermit wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:53 am
Powers will expand wherever they can, and that is what China has been doing all along. Right now it is turning islands in territorially disputed parts of the South China Sea into military bases. All powers, regardless of the forms of their governments do that sort of thing. All of them are real and present dangers to their neighbours.
As far as the South China Sea is concerned, China is riding rough shod over the territorial claims of all the other littoral states in the region, using their military power with no regard to negotiated, international compromise.

Another significant concern, in the Pacific, SE Asia and Africa is the infrastructure loans which ensure deep indebtedness to China, leading to potential blackmail in terms of insistence on supporting China in international forums, and allowing military bases etc.

I don't dispute that western powers at the height of their colonial ambitions did precisely the same, but that doesn't alter the necessity to engage in robust criticism of a dangerously authoritarian and expansionist regime of the present.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:27 am

China is simply playing from the Imperialism handbook - and Morrison clearly is too. What kind of inquiry does Morrison want? One like the Royal Commission into the bushfires? How would he react if China chided Australia for feathering the terms of that inquiry to exclude climate change? What specific lessons might we learn from a Chinese-focused inquiry given that xenotropic viruses are already in the human population and something like Covid-19 could spring from any geographic region and be spread around the world in a matter of weeks?

Morrison's implicit suggestion is that China poses a unique a particular risk as far as human-transmissible xenotropic viruses go (that the Chinese need to be exposed for the dangerous, dirty, diseased people they presumably are) and that this needs to be accounted for in a government's response to a pandemic threat. This is a red-herring.

Covid-19 is a pandemic on a global scale, but it's also an epidemic at the local and national level. Given what is already common knowledge about epidemics and how to address them, from TB to smallpox in times past, to SARS, MERS, and Ebola more recently, or even STIs in particular populations etc, I think the Australian people would be better served by an inquiry into how the government processed the information it was getting about Covid-19 and the actions it took in response to that information and in light of what we already know about the prevalence, distribution, and possible control of infectious diseases.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by Hermit » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:35 am

JimC wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:54 am
I don't dispute that western powers at the height of their colonial ambitions did precisely the same, but that doesn't alter the necessity to engage in robust criticism of a dangerously authoritarian and expansionist regime of the present.
Agreed. I just don't see a connection between the need to criticise authoritarian regimes for their authoritarianism and criticising powers for their expansionism precisely because the latter is done by powers with governments of any hue.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by JimC » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:27 am
China is simply playing from the Imperialism handbook - and Morrison clearly is too. What kind of inquiry does Morrison want? One like the Royal Commission into the bushfires? How would he react if China chided Australia for feathering the terms of that inquiry to exclude climate change? What specific lessons might we learn from a Chinese-focused inquiry given that xenotropic viruses are already in the human population and something like Covid-19 could spring from any geographic region and be spread around the world in a matter of weeks?

Morrison's implicit suggestion is that China poses a unique a particular risk as far as human-transmissible xenotropic viruses go (that the Chinese need to be exposed for the dangerous, dirty, diseased people they presumably are) and that this needs to be accounted for in a government's response to a pandemic threat. This is a red-herring.

Covid-19 is a pandemic on a global scale, but it's also an epidemic at the local and national level. Given what is already common knowledge about epidemics and how to address them, from TB to smallpox in times past, to SARS, MERS, and Ebola more recently, or even STIs in particular populations etc, I think the Australian people would be better served by an inquiry into how the government processed the information it was getting about Covid-19 and the actions it took in response to that information and in light of what we already know about the prevalence, distribution, and possible control of infectious diseases.
The inquiry may never get off the ground due to the way international politics works, but a well-structured, objective and independent inquiry by health experts is surely in the world's interests. There are serious questions about the Chinese government's response early in the piece - the answers to those questions might be embarrassing to China, but they would also be a valuable lesson for the world to learn before the next pandemic hits. It is an inquiry that would be unwise to leave in the hands of the WHO, given their initial pandering to China (This, of course, is only down to their upper echelon - around the world their staff on the ground do a vital and magnificent job). Your bushfire analogy is somewhat strained - they did not spread world-wide, other than some smoke, and the Royal Commission is already charged with examining the impact of climate change, which of course is vital. In any case, this would not be an Australian inquiry - all our government did is make a sober and responsible suggestion for an international inquiry, after the dust has settled, which produced a false accusation from their ambassador that it was an attack on China...

And, holding no brief for Morrison, I don't think he misdoing anything imperialistic, jingoistic or racist. In fact, annoying China is a dangerous ploy for Australia in terms of future trade.

Also, the existence of wet markets containing captive wild life (often endangered species) in densely packed human populations is truly a unique threat, one that should be unacceptable to the world in future, wherever such markets may be.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by laklak » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:15 am

They're a goddamn plague.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:47 am

They do push the US for the title of Arsehole of the World.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by Animavore » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:18 am

I see them as less than a threat to the planet than the US or Russia. At least they're not selling climate denial and pushing fossil fuel and may become World's leading green energy leader. :dunno:

That said, I think Europe, Canada, and New Zealand should push for this honour and leave the US and Ruusia drowning in oil they can't sell.

Oh! No mention of Australia in my fantasy pact?

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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by NineBerry » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:01 am

Chinese takeout is best takeout

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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:23 am

Surely Dutch takeout is the best?
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by NineBerry » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:08 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:23 am
Surely Dutch takeout is the best?
Fun fact: One of the biggest takeout ordering services (Has a near monopoly in Germany) is a Dutch company. Takeaway.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeaway.com

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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:48 pm

JimC wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:04 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:27 am
China is simply playing from the Imperialism handbook - and Morrison clearly is too. What kind of inquiry does Morrison want? One like the Royal Commission into the bushfires? How would he react if China chided Australia for feathering the terms of that inquiry to exclude climate change? What specific lessons might we learn from a Chinese-focused inquiry given that xenotropic viruses are already in the human population and something like Covid-19 could spring from any geographic region and be spread around the world in a matter of weeks?

Morrison's implicit suggestion is that China poses a unique a particular risk as far as human-transmissible xenotropic viruses go (that the Chinese need to be exposed for the dangerous, dirty, diseased people they presumably are) and that this needs to be accounted for in a government's response to a pandemic threat. This is a red-herring.

Covid-19 is a pandemic on a global scale, but it's also an epidemic at the local and national level. Given what is already common knowledge about epidemics and how to address them, from TB to smallpox in times past, to SARS, MERS, and Ebola more recently, or even STIs in particular populations etc, I think the Australian people would be better served by an inquiry into how the government processed the information it was getting about Covid-19 and the actions it took in response to that information and in light of what we already know about the prevalence, distribution, and possible control of infectious diseases.
The inquiry may never get off the ground due to the way international politics works, but a well-structured, objective and independent inquiry by health experts is surely in the world's interests. There are serious questions about the Chinese government's response early in the piece - the answers to those questions might be embarrassing to China, but they would also be a valuable lesson for the world to learn before the next pandemic hits. It is an inquiry that would be unwise to leave in the hands of the WHO, given their initial pandering to China (This, of course, is only down to their upper echelon - around the world their staff on the ground do a vital and magnificent job). Your bushfire analogy is somewhat strained - they did not spread world-wide, other than some smoke, and the Royal Commission is already charged with examining the impact of climate change, which of course is vital. In any case, this would not be an Australian inquiry - all our government did is make a sober and responsible suggestion for an international inquiry, after the dust has settled, which produced a false accusation from their ambassador that it was an attack on China...

And, holding no brief for Morrison, I don't think he misdoing anything imperialistic, jingoistic or racist. In fact, annoying China is a dangerous ploy for Australia in terms of future trade.

Also, the existence of wet markets containing captive wild life (often endangered species) in densely packed human populations is truly a unique threat, one that should be unacceptable to the world in future, wherever such markets may be.
We already know how China acted at the onset of the epidemic in Wuhan. Local officials tried to cover it up, sacked the doctor who identified the problem and other health workers who were expressing alarm. The Chinese government initially misinformed the WHO about the extent of the outbreak and made it difficult for the WHO to gain access to the region for monitoring and assessment. However, by January that had all changed. Wuhan was in lockdown, the WHO were on the ground and reporting, and on Jan 24 the Chinese paper was published in The Lancet about the virus, its features, its infectiousness, its lethality, and its transmission rates. On the 26 Jan the WHO and the authors of the paper gave a joint press conference to publicise this info.

So given what we already know what would Morrison's called-for inquiry contribute the the global conversation beyond pointing the finger China and saying, "You should have told us sooner."? I would suggest that the outcome of such a report would be i) to say that things could have been done better in the initial stages of the outbreak, and ii) to recommend a properly resourced health organisation with global scope to be given the role of coordinating future responses to similar potential crises. Or, stating the bleedin' obvious.

However, given our current climate Which of those is more likely to pepper the headlines and think-pieces of the world's media. "REPORT: Chinese Failings Lead to Coronavirus Tradegy" or "REPORT: Global Health Oversight A Necessity"? Moreover, those governments and interests with an overtly 'exceptionalist' agenda will tie "Chinese Failings" to "WHO Failings" as we've seen already - further undermining global institutions, preparedness, response, and mitigation for future threats. And if the worse should happen the exceptionalists will point to China and the WHO and say, "See, we told you so."

Morrison and other conservative leaders are playing politics with this by applying a teleological outlook retrospectively as a way to distract from the fact that from Jan 24 this year they had all the info they needed to take rational decisions and make preparations in the interests of public health. They'd like us to believe that we can only have arrived 'here' because we set out from 'there' - with 'there' being China's failings. It's like say that because we've arrived at the supermarket then we could only have got here by the driving along the route we did, and we could only drive the route we did because we set out from home. The fact is that finding ourselves outside the supermarket does not entitle us to declare that we must have taken a specific route and started from a specific place, particularly when we could have started from anywhere and taken any number of routes. In political terms it's an attempt to say where we find ourselves with Covid-19 today is, and always was, inevitable.

Nonetheless, we know now that the US administration was briefed on what was going on in Wuhan late last year dispute the president's claims in Jan and Feb that Covid-19 wasn't a problem for the US, that everyone in the US recovered (exceptionaism again) and it was just a bigly Democrat hoax to personally damage his re-election prospects. The UK had five COBRA meetings in January and early February at which the Wuhan outbreak and its ramifications were discussed but which the prime minister failed to attend. Instead Johnson favoured public statements at the beginning like 'coronavirus isn't a problem in the UK' and 'the UK is the healthiest nation on Earth' and 'we should remain calm and keep things in perspective' and '"All Is Well" should be painted on the sides of buses -- basically reinforcing his exceptionalist outlook -- and then as the outbreak took hold in Europe and the UK suggesting that we have to 'take it on the chin' and 'develop herd immunity' and 'etc - which I categorise politically as a 'some of you will die but that's a price I'm willing to pay to keep the economy going' narrative.

Mostly governments sat on their hands for two months while telling us that it was a Chinese problem, if it was even a problem at all. Now that it's been clearly shown to be a real and significant problem in terms of loss of life, healthcare provision, the failure of market principles to meet basic needs, social and economic relations etc, what we're hearing now is basically the same. "Ooo, look over there quick... a badger with a gun!"

The bushfire analogy, while not being entirely equivalent, is not entirely irrelevant here either. On one hand it highlights the practical and political difficulties of one nation judging the competence, responsibility and action of another (in this case layering on a moral assessment of Chinese cultural practices regarding meat markets, food hygiene and animal husbandry standards), and on the other Morrison has excluded looking at climate change in the Royal Commission report on the fires when climate change is a global issue that effects us all and can't (or at least shouldn't) just be excised from the public discussion.

Let's face it, what we now call the Global North is heavily dependent on, invested in (in all senses of the word), and indebted to Chinese authoritarianism and regimes like it. Aside from financial services our economies are primarily driven by consumerism now that the vast majority of manufacturing has been outsourced to regions like China - places with low wages, exploitative working conditions, and social, legal, and political systems that formalise the concentration of power in the hands of a few. To maintain the flow of cheap consumables from North and South East Asia he last thing the Global North needs is China et al to develop anything like a functioning democracy or an independent judiciary and start taking part in the global economy on an equal footing. Like all true liberals Morrison's concerns are primarily economic rather than humanitarian, and his attention is, as ever, placed on positioning himself to cast the best domestic light possible on his party and political agenda. It's in this context that I think focusing on China as an economic region and/or political regime in some 'international report' on the virus is simply Morrison reflecting Western capital interests - in effect maintaining that necessary barrier between China and Western economies that ensures cheap consumables, and by brewing and harbouring an atmosphere of necessary distrust and suspicion in China and the Chinese people at home.

Don't get me wrong here. In saying this I'm not excusing China - let alone praising them. I'm saying that there's wider structural forces at work and that as capitalism requires and necessitates the exploitation of labour it follows that the Global North's relationship with China is the capitalist paradigm played out on a global context. By my lights, focusing on China as bearing the brunt of responsibility for 'releasing' Covid-19 into the global economy is essentially no different to the Victorian mill owner chiding their exploited workforce for lacking the natural capacity or requisite moral fortitude to resist contracting diphtheria or rickets - how dare your sickness limit my ability to make a profit. Morrison my not be explicitly labelling Covid-19 as China's virus, as 'the Chinese virus' like the US president has, but he's still personifying the infection and locating it in the 'body' of China and Chinese people nonetheless - which is to say he's still working for Western capital interests like Trump is even as he calls his proposed inquiry 'entirely sensible and reasonable'.
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by laklak » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:26 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:47 am
They do push the US for the title of Arsehole of the World.
Yeah, the fuckers. We're Number 1! We're Number 1!
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Re: China, a real and present danger

Post by JimC » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:57 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:

...Morrison has excluded looking at climate change in the Royal Commission report on the fires when climate change is a global issue that effects us all and can't (or at least shouldn't) just be excised from the public discussion.
Not really true:

https://naturaldisaster.royalcommission.gov.au
The Commission is holding hearings to gather evidence about coordination, preparedness for, response to and recovery from disasters as well as improving resilience and adapting to changing climatic conditions and mitigating the impact of natural disasters.
So, climate change is part of the brief. The way it's stated does look a bit fatalistic, and I'd prefer a more robust mention, but it cannot be said that it has been excluded.
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